The Rich Redmond Show

Unknown: Bitcoin is so volatile.
Yeah, there are days, there are

weeks that I've lost $40,000 but

then it comes back up. He's got
to keep the faith. It's day to

day. Could be so are you gonna
get, are you gonna get into any

of that? That's

not my thing, man. My wife's a
tax accountant. She's all about

the safe investments. You know,
safe, yeah,

store value. Well,

you guys are younger, so you can
go a little bit more aggressive.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, we can still take the
risks. Nice. She's a tax

accountant. Yeah, she's

taking on new clients. No, why
not? She? She works

for the business management on
the firm, does

she? Yeah, we know where she
works and everything. Yeah,

amazing.

Because, I mean, they're in
demand right now? Yeah, yeah.

It's they may not be in demand
if the IRS goes away, which I

pray for the day that comes, it
would be

nice to save that amount of
money in taxes every year. Oh,

god. What would you do with it?
You could do home improvements.

You could stick it in your IRA,
and

imagine the economy that's taken
off and rip roaring, because I

have to worry about freaking
April 14. But I think you would.

You want me to go on my IRS
tirade again, I will. I think

it'd be sometime before that
actually happens where we

abolish taxes. It's good, oh,
it's not gonna be.

We're not abolishing taxes.
We're just changing the

framework of how we get the
taxes.

I know, but I think it's gonna
be some time. I don't know. It's

even with the best joke of it,

of a pen man, he's me. He's
making changes with that

executive those executive orders
pretty quickly. He you're

talking

about anyway, this is the rich
Redmond show.

Well, I've been doing it, you
know, you're doing the spiky,

yeah, but where it's shaved
around everywhere. Now I'm doing

the, I'm gonna try to do the
Grayson or whatever his last

name is, where it's just all
kind of like

you should grow a, you should do
a neck beard. Grow a grow just a

big old bush shoulder. Start
being like a competitive

bearder. I think

this would be, did you eat all
of your things? Because we can

use these as shakers. Yeah,
dude, what do you think

competitive beer, competitive
bearder. That's probably already

a thing, it

is? It totally is. There's one
of the guys that works for us,

does it? He's got a big old
beard. Beards

are so Did

you ever do it? No, I can't look
at me. I

do have a baby face, which is
nice. And, you know, the funny

thing, Jim is, I

love the fact you look great
with the more hair. I think you

should do the, you know, a beard
with the Antonio Banderas. What

you say, I'm making you like me
with the more hair. Yeah,

thanks, babe. You got the more
hair, and then slick it back in

a ponytail and look like, you
know, a Venezuelan gangster.

Well, what's

great about growing it out, bro,
is that when my band is back in

action one five or six weeks
from now, I'll be ready, dude,

I'll be like, I tell all the
kids, you don't have to get

ready if you stay ready. So I
got the sticks in my hands, you

know, I'm, have

you been, uh, shaking the rust
off? I

mean, I'm busy teaching. So I
got the sticks in my hands. You

know, that's good. Well,

you always got the kid here if
you need to. You know, don't

want to work and bang on those
drums all

day. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I know
I gotta get the studio together.

Why? Because I'm chasing the
youth. Man. Today's guest, I

tell you what we always talk
about reinventing and today is a

prime example of someone who has
the same background. Of me went

to the same school, studied with
the same guys. Probably had some

similar interests, similar
influences. We moved to the same

city, one generation apart, and
he's doing the thing. It's

amazing, but then he decides he
wants to do something else, and

he's incredible at it. Who am I
talking about? Talking about Ben

Jackson. Ben Jackson is our
guest today on the rich Redmond

show, where we talk about music
and motivation and success and

drums and whatever comes up
along the way. He's from

Atlanta. He moved to Nashville
in oh eight at the tender age of

24 he's played for people like
Aaron Tippin. Remember building

the bike Frankie Ballard, love
Frankie Ballard, I played some

shaker and tambourine on his
records. On that tour, they

opened for Bob Seeger with John
Brewer from Grand Funk Railroad

on the drum. So he's going to
tell us how they got to visit

and know each other. Hope they
did. I also played with guys

like Greg Bates, Joe Nichols
halfway to hazard. We share that

credit. Yeah. Ben, how are you?
Man, welcome aboard. Man, good

to be here. Thanks for having
me. Man, well,

I tell you what, you deserve to
be here, and you probably win

the award for most traveled.
Well, we did have a gentleman

that drove from Chattanooga
yesterday, but all the way from

Mount Juliet, that's an hour,
yeah, and then we had to kill

some time. I got two tacos, and
you've been so patient, and

thank you all good.

It was sort of my fault. Yeah,
we fully blame you. That's good

as you should. Scheduling

is crazy. I mean, all of our
episodes, I have to send Jim a

Google calendar invite.
Sometimes he gets and sometimes

he doesn't, but that's the whole
thing in life. Is just like.

Realizing it's like sands
through the hourglass is we've

only got so much time. Yeah,
half my life is scheduling too,

you know? And so you were saying
you get up early because you got

to be tracking in your own home
studio.

Yeah, I'm in there. I want to be
in there way before anybody

else. So I'm up early. So

if the session starts at 10 and
some other players are coming

in. They want to get sounds.
You're having your coffee at

eight o'clock. Yeah, I'm in the
door at eight o'clock, nice. And

you're 20 feet from your house.
40 couple 100 but yeah, a couple

100 feet.

Yeah, I want to say that. He
said that half of his life is

scheduling his life. Yeah. Do
you actually block out time to

schedule your life? And is it on
a calendar

I spend, I do block out admin
time. Now, that's not something

I did when I was just a drummer,
you know. But like, yeah, yeah,

there's like, AD, would you

like, if you got so busy, would
you be able to have your wife

help you with that?

She's got her own job, right?
Yeah?

I mean, she would, she would
help. But

my wife's actually helped me
with my schedule in my life,

yeah, which

is she's, she's got her hands
full with the with the kids and

the house nowhere. We're

down one kid, you know? She's,
she can come off the bench.

There you go, you know? And we
have the, she's

always busy making, like,
incredible sourdough bread and

dinner for you every night. I
mean, as she should, this is,

this is, this

is going great already. This is
very

all in the family.

Make sure that she's barefoot,
you know, in the kitchen.

Mostly. This

is why we don't have women on
the show. We need to have women

on the show. I'm

so happy to be here on the last
episode of the

season, the series finale. So,
well, Ben was, you know, he's a

very savvy business, business
minded young man. And he says,

yeah, what's the goal of the
podcast? So these revenue, is

it? What is it? And I said, we
don't know. Yes, we just keep

doing it. We just keep doing it,
and we're refining it. Okay? We

made it more cash. Now, by the
time this comes out, yeah, we're

gonna have merch. We have to
call the girl today and approve

the coffee mug and the hoodie
and the baseball shirt and male

and female and the sizes, and
get this stuff happening.

Because we've only been talking
about it for six years. That's

right. You

know, we get 6000 downloads per
episode per minute, so

advertisers, let's talk, Jim.

Don't give away our secrets.
Man, right. But look at some of

these accomplishments. East End
Studio. I like that because West

End, no one has an East End.
Yeah. I

put it there because at the time
it was the east end of civil

civilization in Nashville, yeah.
And

so you officially built it in
2019 and look at these

production credits, man. And
usually I'll have to say, I do a

massive deep dive into our
guests. But um, this is going on

the to do list. I couldn't get
to Spotify to pull up today.

We're talking about AT and T
having trouble getting calls

going out. I know what's up. AT
T you too. Yeah, yeah. It's

really weird. I've had to power
down my phone, turn it back on.

Doesn't matter. What are you
Verizon? Horizon. Can you hear

me now? I

think I still can. If we're out
here, I'm still working, yeah,

so

sister, Hazel, San C and crash
debris. I like that. It's a full

length album. When did that come
out?

Uh, into last year. Okay, yeah,
so we cut it for it was, it was

about two years that we worked
on it, two

years in the making, on and off,
on and off. Okay, yeah, and you

got Brian. How do you spread
that last name DeVoe, silent s

from nine days. That's the story
of the girl. Story of a girl.

Yeah, you know Keith sobroski
was in that band. You remember

Keith? I did not know Keith was
in that band. He was Miranda's

drummer in the early days. He
was in nine days. I did not know

if it was an original member,
yeah, but single, beautiful son

was like, was it a triple A
radio, modern rock radio thing?

Yeah? 100 Yeah. It was fun to
do. It was just me and him that

played everything. Did
everything. Okay? So

between you and him, you covered
all the instruments. Amazing

indie folk artist, Grace days,
maybe American dreaming. You

were the producer and musician
mixer. Well, you've always been

a musician at the highest level.
Then you started getting into

what would have been next,
mixing projects. No producing

first for producing first. And
then, instead of passing it off

to a mixer, you said, Let me
handle this.

Yeah. Well, somebody said you
should handle this, yeah. So

you're not afraid to just dive
into the deep end of the pool.

Not anymore, yeah, yeah. I used
to be, I mean, that was like,

there was a long time as a
musician that doing other stuff

besides what I was already good
at, felt like, felt fake, very

impostery, very not, not okay to
do. And it was, and I felt like

it was gonna wreck a reputation
that I had if somebody sees me

do, do one thing, and, oh, and
you confuse the heck out of

people, right? And I was worried
about that like, like, there's a

thing that, yeah, it's, you
know, the the, for lack of a

better term, the branding of of
who you are in your career,

right? Yeah, right. I felt like
that mattered a ton. And I've

kind of found out that it, it
does. And it doesn't, it's like,

you can't be everything to
everybody, yeah, but if you dive

in and get good at something,
and you're not afraid to start

over and kind of suck at it for
a while, yeah, then you become

that thing for some people. And
that's, that's kind of how all

that other

thing for other people, yeah,
yeah. I for a while, you know,

when I was kind of going between
Nashville and Los Angeles,

people like, do you live in LA
or Nashville, I was like, Yes,

right? And they never knew where
I was, so they had to always

reach out and find out where I
was and if I was available,

yeah, which is good. I always

think it's kind of fun. I mean,
in the end, it's like, Well,

wait, are you producing? Are you
playing or on the road, right

now, right? Yeah, just reach
out, man, the first time, like,

I ended up doing a production,
kind of a CO production thing

where I was also engineering,
which was way not something I

put out there much like in a
commercial studio. Yeah? And I

got the biggest kick out of
standing at a console, kind of

trying to get stuff going for
the day, yeah, and seeing my

buddies that I've known forever,
that I've played with on

sessions, getting sounds on the
other side of the glass, and one

of them in particular, just kind
of look up at me and just kind

of squint, kind of going like,
well, there's a drummer here,

but you're there. Oh, and then
just look back down in his

guitar and keep doing his thing.
And it's like, yeah, who was

that? Oh, stranger.

Oh nice. Yeah, he was a guy I
listened to, you know, there's

that studio musician Academy,
yeah, I have listened to every

episode, you know, I really,
I've really enjoyed that, you

know, getting in inside baseball
insights to all these people

that do the thing every day,
sure, you know.

So, yeah, they need to have you
on there. Man,

I don't know, those guys love to
go on there. Miles, yeah, yeah.

I've listened to his Yeah.

So it also makes you realize how
fast these engineers are on big

tracking dates when, say, in a
demo session where you got five

songs to do in three hours, so
you're at the average song just

every 35 minutes, right? And
they have got so many inputs,

and everybody's asking to be
punched, and they do it so fast

that is, like, I don't know if I
could ever it's time in the

trenches, obviously,

yeah. And I did a lot of that,
like the Pro Tools, part of it,

keeping up that way. Yeah, I did
a lot of it on busses, like I

did, which, you know, you're not
punching people in on busses,

but you're doing all this
editing and learning all your

shortcuts. Yes, and I was doing
that in the front lounge of

busses while I was still kind of
going in and out on weekends and

subbing, sub dates and all that
stuff, and getting getting to

where I could so how did

you get yourself these DAWs Pro
Tools and Ableton, is it like

pulling up YouTube University
kind of a thing? No,

I mean, I didn't. Then I do that
stuff now a lot. I'm a YouTube

junkie now, but at the time, and
I don't even know if I how,

well, I remember how I taught
myself Pro Tools, but I, you

know, I had come up doing some
of that stuff even in high

school, playing with like cake
walk and Sound Forge and stuff

that was

out in the late 90s, right?
Yeah, yes. I never played

software audio workshops. Saw,
Oh,

I never did, but yeah, I know I
knew about it, cue based, yes,

and I never used that. That
still exists, apparently, but,

but I had done that, and I put
all that down when I went to

school and was just focused on
the music thing and for years

and touring and all that, and
when it came back around, there

was enough familiarity, plus I
did all the Ableton stuff, you

know, for the road. Okay,

so now that's another skill set
that a lot of people like to

tout, and it's a great way to,
like, have a side hustle or

monetize. I mean, Matt Payne has
that amazing, yeah, he was one

of my first guests on the show.
And he has, I forget the name of

the company, but I know that
Jeff Marino probably works with

him a little bit, you know,
Darius Rutgers drummer, right?

And they put these giant shows
together for people and the

tracks and everything, so you
have that skill set. Yeah, you

did that for a lot of people,
like even Gary Allen, right.

I did it for Gary Allen. I did
it for Houser for a long time. I

did it for Steven Tyler solo
thing. Oh, wow. And my rigs were

not as intricate as some of the
stuff that's especially going on

now, yeah, but I got it. It was
part of the getting the tip. And

gig is they were moving from,
this is what, oh eight. They

were moving from a like, task
cam, you know, port, a studio

for track, for to run their
backing tracks. Ouch. When I was

auditioning for the gig, like we
were supposed to use a laptop,

and they say it's good on Mac.
Do you know how to use that?

Said, sure. You know how to
build track rig? Absolutely. You

made

yourself so valuable. I had no
idea how to do

it. Oh, you said, Yes. Then

you faked it. And I called, I
called Riley because he was

doing it with the flats, and I
knew they were using Ableton. I

said, Hey, how do you guys do
this? And this is what we use. I

don't know a whole lot else. And
I just dove in and figured it

out. Wow. What do you think
they're gonna think when they

hear this? What depends guys,
yeah, they're like, Oh, you

didn't you. You completely
misled us. Oh

no, they they've been told,
yeah, okay, you came through.

Yeah, it worked out fine. And at
the time, that wasn't such a

prevalent thing on like, mid
level touring acts, middle of.

The middle of the bill acts,
yeah. And so we'd go out and

play these festivals, and people
would ask, you know, hey, who

built the rig? Me, Oh, I did.
Doesn't everybody have to do

their own because that's what I
thought. That's why I was on the

guy. No. So I did like some work
for with Tracy Broussard, for

Shelton, and I can't remember
all of them now, but yeah, they

just kind of would come in. So
you're,

you became a kind of a go to guy
for that, and will you still do

it, knock it out

very rarely, like, I actually
grew to really dislike it,

because it's if you're not going
to do what Matt does, where it's

like a full service thing that
you're really building out to do

that. The the downside of of
doing something like that is

you've got to be willing to kind
of be on call when they have

issues on the road, yeah, and in
the studio on the middle of a

session, I can't, can't help
you, if you're on the deck for a

festival on a Thursday and
something's not working.

So Matt, a team of people that
are available kind

of okay, I would think so, you
know. And now probably it's been

a long time since I've done
them, I would imagine now the

the band leader, the guys on the
road know way more about that,

then it's not as new as it was
when I was doing, yeah, because

when

I had the sub for like, Mark
POIs, you know, and he had to go

get married. I, you know, he's
like, Hey, man, here's the SPD,

SX. This is how you forward to
the next track. This is how you

started. This how you stop it?
If Tyler is going to extend this

section, hit this thing, then
you got to get out of it. And it

was like, I had to, you know,
work that stuff to orchestrate

right into my DM

for drummers that have done
that, like, because Nashville,

the drummers almost always fire
that stuff. Yeah, it's like,

that's the that's half of
learning the gig. It's not just

the learning the tunes. It's
learning how to play and play

that thing. Yeah, and, and,

but are you? Are you? Are you
signaling it while you're

playing? Or you just start
stopping? It

depends on the rig. But a lot of
people would have, you know,

something would run for a
certain amount of time, and then

you trigger the next section. Or
you it would go to the bridge

and loop the bridge, and then
you'd trigger out of it. And so,

yeah, there's a lot of and it
depends on, again, the artist.

There's a couple artists there's
a couple artists that I won't

name, that really didn't like
they wanted the tracks, but they

didn't want to be constricted by
the tracks, and the drummers

were just chasing them all over
the place all the time, you

know? And so it's just really
dependent on the gig.

Yeah, Harry, Harry Myrie got
really exceptionally good at it,

too, I believe, on a couple of
his gigs that he had. And, you

know, I, I don't want to sound
like the old, you know, get off

my long guy. But I mean, there's
a lot of legacy acts that

there's, there's no there's no
tracks. Yeah, you know what I

mean, very basic, no tracks on
seekers gig, that's right. So,

did you get to visit with Don
Brewer? A ton, yeah. Nice. Cat.

Great. So, so Jim Don Brewer was
the drummer with

Grand Funk. Real

nice. Really? Wrote that song
too. I believe he wrote it so

you need more cowbell. So he
goes to the mailbox Like Bill

Gibson all the time. Does he to
collect a check? How

many other songs did they have

some kind of wonderful is that
that's right, but that wasn't

theirs, though. That was a
cover, right? That was a cover,

but that was a song from the
60s. I want to say there's

another one I'm getting. I'm
getting closer to my home.

That's right, nice. That's a
good one. Very eerie and

mystical. Yes. Great drummer.
Yeah. We played all those had

some big hair back in the

day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big old
Tommy Aldridge, that's

what I love about obviously, you
had a preference. You know,

you're a family man, you know,
you work the road, but then

you're like, No, I'm gonna build
a studio, I'm gonna produce, I'm

gonna do sessions, I'm gonna
stay home. Did you enjoy it when

you did it, or do you miss it?
No,

you're good on the barbecue. I
don't.

Yeah, I don't, yeah, exactly.
The best barbecue you've ever

had every day. I love, I loved
doing the road, and I still like

going out. I go out a couple
times with hazel a year, usually

for Mark, and that's, that's,
that's more like a, it's more

like going out of town to see
your uncles and cousins and

buddies now, like they were so
close. But yeah, it's a I liked.

I loved playing on the road, and
I love learning stuff. I didn't

love sitting around as much as
you sit around on the road.

Yeah, I really wanted to be
actively involved in making

music a lot of the time. And I
think the production thing for

me was kind of twofold. It was
one of one, one of the reasons I

did it was because I really
wanted to be more involved in

the creative process of record
making. And I had done enough

demo sessions to know that that
wasn't really what you did as a

session player so much you're
more, more of a you're in

service to that production team,
you know, which is great, yeah.

But, and, and opportunity, there
was a, and I just talked to

Justin shipper steel player
about this not long ago on a

session, because he, he kind of
made a pivot from guitar to

steel. That's worked out okay
for him. I think he's done

pretty good. Yeah. Uh,
recognizing sort of when, when

there's a an availability for
something else that you do, and

do you want to, you know, I
could have kept on the road and

stayed and played drums and
tried to work my way into

sessions that way forever, or I
wanted to be in studios and

making records sooner. And this
there was, there's more of an

open door over here, and so I
went through it,

you saw the door open. And

it seems like a lot of drummers
do that, you know, Tom Reeves

quit, totally, yeah, yeah. Well,
not quit, but they become

octopi, you know, we're, I was,
you know, me being a drummer

coming up and having that kind
of an identity throughout my

teenage years, and then getting
into radio learning, you know,

multi track production and
things like that, eventually

getting into video production.
It just seems those skill sets

just make sense for us. For some
reason, I agree. I see that a

lot getting behind the radio
board and flying faders and, you

know, pulling carts and firing
things off as you're talking,

that's a that's a skill. It's
all percussion.

Did you do it on purpose?
Because I didn't necessarily

know I was doing it. I just

always knew that it's like when
I saw when I first got into a

radio production studio in
Connecticut, at the home of rock

and roll. That's where we 95 all
the Grand Funk Railroad tunes.

The production director, at the
time, he had the job I wanted. I

saw what he did, sitting in the
production studio and putting

all these things together. And
it was the first time I heard a

radio station imaging voice
without all the stuff around it,

like just the raw track. And I
was going, and I remember,

that's actually a real guy that
it just dawned on me. I was

like, 22 years old, 23 years
old, going, Holy crap. I never

thought about it. That's, that's
a real person, dude. He paid

taxes, right? Yeah, and he's got
this big voice in the home of

rock and roll. I know, you know,
he's the big imaging voice. And

he would always the guy who's,
his name was rich Conway. He

would sit in the studio and was
like, it was like, Candy Land,

yeah, you know, sound effects
and zip zaps and booms and

explosions and all these
different things. And I was

like, This is me, you know, I
was either gonna go into radio

or I was gonna go, Dude, how if
I this happened, you and I would

probably would never have met,
no, you'd be so ingrained in

radio. I was in rate, but I went
into radio thinking I wanted to

go into ESPN. Did you know that?
Well, it's a Connecticut

company. Yeah, it was in
Bristol. Yeah, I was at my

holdout. Was like, well, I'll
hang out in radio for a bit

until they're hiring up in

Britain. Did you know Did you
know enough about sports no

sports ball, you don't really
need to no no. So I basically

you have to have an opinion.
It's like, you sound like you're

like, when you're a news anchor,
you really do. It's not like

you're just reading copy. You do
have to have somewhat of an

opinion, possibly,

yeah, well, it used to not be
that way, but that's a whole

separate topic. When I saw the
control room for live

television, and you saw the guy,
I can't remember what role he

had, but he was like, you know,
you know. Okay, ready was,

camera two goes. Camera two.
Ready? You know, I'm like, I

could totally

do that. Now, the dudes at Moo
TV do it in a different city

every day. They set up their
mobile TV production facility.

You know what? I mean, they take
turns doing the show. You do the

opener tonight, I'll do the
headliner. And they take turns

and they Hey, you jump on camera
tonight, then these guys are

carrying the big cameras around.

It's just, it's just anything
like anything else got processes

and procedures and systems and
all that systems and processes.

But I knew that when I saw like
he was working on something

called the Fostex Foundation,
2000 Wow. And it was a,

basically a four track mixer,
but it was eight mono tracks

that you pan to left and right,
yeah? And I figured that out,

you know, touch screen, all that
stuff, yeah, scrub wheel. It was

really cool.

It's like being a drum channel,
which is in Oxnard, is like a

real TV production facility,
right? Yeah? I mean, with jibs

and a producer and guys with
headsets, that's the

same area as drum. Drum you or
is drumeo different?

Oh, no, don't say that. No,
drama O's is the Canadian

conglomerate now muzzora,
because they've got guitaro,

they've got basio, they've got,
they got, they got, they're so

smart they expanded. Hey, Jim,
do me a favor. Bring my overall

volume down. If you can just a
little bit. Just talk quieter.

What? What?

Like, that's in the recipe.
We've

got, we've got some tic tac, you

know, it's funny. Getting back
to this doesn't really work.

Let's see. Oh,

we've got checks mix flying
everywhere, guys. But that's the

beautiful thing about about
percussion, is that everything's

a percussion that the chain. You
could change the sound, no, by

eating some of these. Well, you
know what I thought about doing?

I really thought about becoming
a DJ, yeah? DJ, you would have

been a great DJ. DJ, Redman, I
mean, I can still do it, because

I watched some people do it. I'm
like, No, aren't

you kind of doing that with your
own right? Podcast? Well,

I want to, you want to do the
what do? No,

we know not like, not like,
quest love, like artistic DJing

with vinyl. I'm talking about
coming in with the bare minimum.

You got your two laptops, you
guys, you got your thumb drive,

you guys, you got your little
walk out, walk out of thing

there. You got your microphone.
You introduced the bride and the

groom say, like, weddings, bar
mitzvahs, parties, give me my

give me my 10 grand. And then
I'm incorporating a grant, dude.

I'm incorporating my rolling
pads and percussion zip code. Is

he

doing these parties? I know.
Man, they're probably DJs out

there going, where are you gonna
get 10 No,

I'm telling you, that's what
that what a good wedding DJ.

Makes sense. 10 grand, really?
Yeah, I don't know. That's what

I'm asking for. Actually, I
actually, actually have a, have

a student from my first drummers
weekend, right?

That's where I'm starting at
this. I'm not,

I'm not gonna say names, but we
got to catch up. And he was

telling me the ins and outs of
being a DJ. And he does. He's a

drummer first, but he makes a
great living as a wedding and

corporate DJ. And I'm telling
you the numbers 10 grand.

Well, I mean, I guess if you
were to come up with a program

where you, you did put
percussive implements in there

and stuff like that, and you got
the audience involved with

tambourines. And, yeah, you

could bring, like, a basket of
percussion stuff, yeah,

interactive DJ,

dude, let's, let's do it, pass
it out. Yeah, I'm not doing any

of the heavy lifting. I'm just
gonna show up and cheer you on.

That's the

beautiful thing is, you don't
have to have, you don't have to

bring in buckets of LPs anymore,
like baskets and baskets of LPs.

It's all, well, I bet you didn't
know that this is where this

interview I

was going. I knew it's going
somewhere. We

have just a casual, free flowing
conversation, yeah, who were?

How did you? How did you get
into, like, really quickly,

doesn't have to be your you
know, Marvel orange story,

origin story. But how did it all
when did you start playing?

I think I was

10 or 11, yeah, so, so just

started hitting, hitting
everything in sight.

No, I wanted to play my my
grandfather. Short version of

the story is my dad's dad passed
away. He had a couple guitars

that he didn't know how to play,
that we inherited, and I was at

the age where that looked really
cool. And then I saw a buddy

playing drums, and somehow I
just took a left turn, and

that's, that's where it was. But
it was about playing rock and

roll. And, yeah, you know, not,
not, not a classical guy to

start

with. What was, okay? So for me,
like, you know, 1983

MTV, Martha Quinn, I love her.
Um, wouldn't

a 1981 for you.

Okay, so 81 Yeah, leading,
that's how it was for me. Yeah,

81 you're right. So what was it
for you? Because your

generation, plus, yeah,

and like, you must have been
born 8583

8183 sounds like by the time I
started playing. It was, it was,

you know, the Smashing Pumpkins
and the wall flowers and Dave

Matthews Band. Oh yeah, you
know, all the, all the 90s

stuff, and half the people on
that list over there that I've

worked with now, but yeah, yes,
yeah, they were all

on the radio. Yeah, I got to
spend a day with him. He's just

a very nice, approachable guy,
man,

that's what I hear. Stitzel
knows him rich, you know,

because they're both Chicago
guys, yeah and yeah, he's, I've

never met him, but he was my he
was probably one of my first

drumming heroes, him and Carter,

I guess. Yeah, he got, I think
he got into tech, yeah, time

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Jim's got his big book, Bitcoin.
You have a whole Bitcoin, but,

yeah, let's tell the world that
that's fine. Okay,

get the whole the whole Bitcoin.
Yeah, it's nice,

but I got an early so then I'm
hodling, as they say, you hold

the kids say, actually it is a,
I guess it was a misspelling,

but in the Bitcoin unit, the bit
the bitty verse, I would say

it's, yeah, they say it's
hodling, holding on for. Your

Life? Oh, yeah, yeah, because
Bitcoin is so volatile. Yeah,

there are days, there are weeks
that I've lost $40,000 but

then it comes back up. It's got
to keep the faith. It's day to

day. Could be so are you gonna
get, are you gonna get into any

of that?

That's not my thing, man, my
wife's a tax accountant. She's

all about the safe investments.
You know, safe, yeah,

lower value.

Well, you guys are younger, so
you can go a little bit more

aggressive, yeah, yeah, yeah, we

can still take the risks. Nice.
She's

a tax accountant. Yeah, she's

taking on new clients. No,

why not she? She works for the
business management on

the firm. Does she we know where
she works, and everything, yeah,

amazing. Because,

I mean, they're in demand right
now. Yeah, yeah. It's they may

not be in demand if the IRS goes
away, which I pray for the day

that comes. It

wouldn't be nice to save that
amount of money in taxes every

year. Oh, god. What would you do
with it? You could do home

improvements. You could stick it
in your IRA

and imagine the economy that's
taken off and rip roaring,

because I have to worry about
freaking April 14, but I think

it would be, you want to go on
my IRS tirade again? I will. I

think it'd be

sometime before that actually
happens where we abolish taxes.

It's good. It's not going to

be, we're not abolishing taxes.
We're just changing the

framework of how we get the
taxes.

I know, but I think it's going
to be some time. I don't know.

Even with the best joke of

a of a pen man, he's me. He's
making changes with that

executive those executive orders
pretty quickly. He

you're talking about anyway,

man, that day comes, it's going
to be a, it's going to be a,

make it a national flipping
holiday. I cannot stand income

taxes or property taxes. Close

to, this is close to Jim's
heart. I mean, who wants it? I

mean, you want, you do want to
have highways and infrastructure

and all

this stuff. I'm not saying that,
but that's where people go off

the rails. They think that's
what I'm saying. That's not what

I'm saying. No, no, there are
other ways to collect taxes that

are not, you know, intimidating
and based on intimidation

tactics. I did this on my own
podcast with Mercurio. I said

the actual freaking font of the
IRS is designed to make you feel

intimidated. It's the

intimidation font, right? Wonder
who get that gig? Like the font

selection. Dude,

dude. Every font has a voice.
Yeah, you ever relaxed? Like,

you know? Why did you

choose those fonts for our our
logo?

I don't know. It just, it's, to
me, it's like the rich Redmond

show.

Yeah, it's book ended by
happiness.

We could change it up. I mean,
it was, it's just impact.

But every font has a voice. You
ever read a sign and derive the

voice from it? There's a voice
to it, yeah? I mean, the first

Comic Sans has a voice, the
first try at the logo. Jim sent

me out of the park, and I just
okay, if the IRS font was in

Comic Sans, would you take them
seriously? Which one is that?

Which was comic book?

Oh, God, but the Bible in the
bubble font?

People hate Comic Sans. Is what
I'm pretty much.

This is way off the rails.

This is what you know. This
makes a episode fun. Oh yeah,

people universally hate the IRS,
so, yeah, this is a good topic.

So with your wife being in that
position, you guys probably pay

on time. It's like, boom, no
extensions. Oh

no, everything's extended
because she's working on

everybody's stuff. Ah, yeah.

So this is a stressful time of
year, kind of like from like,

March to May,

yeah, yeah. And then again,
September, October, because it's

the extension deadlines. Oh,
man, yeah. It's just I learned

all kinds of stuff I never

wanted to know. Yeah, when is
that? When did you guys meet?

And you said you married 12
years we met at

North Texas. You're, you guys
was, she had music, uh, she was,

and then also she ended up
double majoring in business, and

then did the accounting thing
here.

Smart, yeah, so what was your
degree in performance,

education, Jazz Studies, dude,
like, a, it's like a philosophy

degree, yep, basically, but,
but, man, it's good to have that

in your back pocket.

Yeah? And, I mean, it was the
path that that for me. Let me

focus on what I want to do the
most, right? All the other

options were gonna limit my time
behind drums, yeah,

and if you can't play jazz
drums, I mean, it's like,

there's a lot of fantastic
people that have never even

dabbled it. They think they
never even tried being spang a

Lang but, you know, I always
tell the kids it the reason why

we have a drum set is because of
an American art form known as

jazz, and it gets you used to
working in a triplet subdivision

and tons coordination, yeah,
yeah. And

the the melodic phrasing and the
improvisation stuff that doesn't

it still applies to all the
other styles, just kind of, you

know, it's all derivative. So
that was

your favorite, some of your
favorite jazz drummers? Haines

was okay, yeah, probably my
still favorite, playing

to the end. He was playing up to
like, the last couple months of

his life.

I saw him in like, 2017,

or 18 in New York, at the Blue
Note. Wow. And yeah, I mean, I.

Uh, yeah. I mean, Haynes,
obviously, Tony Gad, really? I

mean, I mean, yeah, I always
love Gad, because it just the

vocabulary stayed the same
whether he was playing with

Chick Corea or Eric Clapton, and
it somehow worked for both.

So sad about his son, yeah,
yeah, terrible. That's terrible.

That is terrible, yeah, you
know, the older we get, it's

like we're, I'm in, I'm in this
season. I don't know if you're

starting to notice it, but
people are, oh yeah. People are

fading, yeah, you know, yeah,
yeah, yeah. The one thing that

is certain

is that and freaking taxes,
yeah, and the damn iron

callback,

yeah. Now, now, what about your
pop guys? Now, before you moved

to Nashville, did you say, Hey,
I better do a deep, deep dive, a

little bit on, like, Eddie bears
and Lonnie Wilson

or totally, absolutely, yeah,
yeah. Uh, did a bunch of that.

And I started playing with,
like, the Texas country artists

and stuff. And, oh, he's doing
van tours out there across Texas

and Oklahoma and all that. Any
guys we know that probably not,

yeah. Most of them aren't doing
and doing it anymore, you know,

wow. But like, you know, opening
for the burgeoning Eli young

band, oh yeah, you know, they
were at it for some time before

they pop. Yeah. And some around
the guys like Stoney LaRue and

Kevin Fowler and guys that have
just been the staples out there

for a long time. Kevin Fowler,
Fowler, that's

Ken to Andre, yeah, our buddy,
yeah.

And still, I'm still working
with Aaron Watson now, but from

the other side of the glass,
yeah. And so, yeah, it's a did a

bunch of that, but yeah, before
I moved here, absolutely, kind

of dug in and studied hard how
to do that, and even took

lessons outside of UNT with some
like Sean McCarthy, some of

those Dallas guys. So what wOJ a
little bit like, Hey, get me my,

like, commercial chops together,
a little

bit. So, what it was so, so Jim
Dan wojowski was kind of like,

uh, he's so great. He's like, an
urban legend. I mean, he was

basically in the unit, you know,
University of North Texas, lab

bands in like, 8283 84 kind of
around there live in Australia,

like

right after Bissonnette,
probably right after

business. And he was just, he's
just, is still an amazing

drummer, and he kind of ruled
the roost in Dallas for a long

time. And now he's playing with
Peter Frampton. He lives in the

Pacific Northwest, but when you
studied with him, um, what did

you What do you guys cover? Man,
I

think I took, like, half a
lesson with Dan. He was

impossible to nail down, because
he was always on the road with

always on the road with with
Frampton. But we he would, he

had a practice room over in this
place off 75 that I was taking

some lessons with McCarthy and
and occasionally some other

people, and he would just be in
there. So it was more of a, just

a those were like life lesson,
gig lesson, hallway, discussion,

lesson, kind of things which are
great, you know, off of 75 off

of, like, Mockingbird Lane over
there, I think so, yeah, it was,

like a really colorful place,
yeah,

like planetary murals on the
walls and stuff. Yeah,

yes, to rehearse there with all
of my top 40 bands. Yeah, yep,

that's the spot. Now, when you
were in Dallas, did you ever

play with the Dallas press and
electric, or the bill Tillman,

or the project, or random
access, or did

some of those as sub things. And
I did, there's a guy named Jeff

Taylor that did a lot of that
cover band. Yep, I was a

founding member of front line.
Yeah, yep. And Tin Man Band, and

some of that stuff play with
Jeff a good bit. And yeah, did

weird like country gigs. I
remember playing some it was

this huge Honky Tonk in Fort
Worth that I did for about a

year, white elephant, Sloan, no
way bigger and way not in the

middle of anything like that.
Billy Bob's no way off the

beaten path. Wow, I promise
you've never seen this place,

but it was down there, and it
was huge. And there'd be like 30

or 40 people in there on a
Wednesday night, we'd be playing

old country songs, yeah? And,
uh, some other drummer at UMT

handed me the gig. And come to
find out that all the people

that were there were swingers.

It was a way, as in, upside
upside down, pineapple Swingers,

yeah? Or actual Spanx bangalang
swinging on music. No, the first

thing, yeah, like,

Shut Yeah, really, yeah, yeah.

Just a intro to country music.

I'm thinking, like, yeah. Like,
you know, swing, yeah. Do

you ever think about throwing
your keys in there? No, were

they attractive swingers? Are
they? You

know, that's the thing you learn
in life, is that those, those

things are not as portrayed on
TV. Usually, yeah, usually

nudist colonies are full of
people that shouldn't be new.

That's kind of but they they
just love it. Yeah, they do.

They're so free. Yeah, have you
ever done that? Just walk around

naked? No, on a beach, like, you
know, specifically on a beach,

no, well, you know, nude beach.
Never been to a new beach. Would

you ever want to do it?

Okay? I want to ask them. I
don't

think that was just the setup,
not the question. Okay, great.

All right, I'll make a note of
that. He

was gonna invite me this
weekend.

Well, yeah, you go to a lot of,
you go to a lot of I don't go to

nude beaches, but you go to the
camps, the campgrounds. Well,

yeah, we used to go camping, but
none of them had that. Kind of,

did you get rid of your camper?
Yeah,

we sold it. So I produce, I
produce the try that in a small

town podcast. Try that in small
town.com. And homosexual, yeah,

one of the guys, Courtney and I,
went to a trip al tapasa Robles,

to do something that was a can
aligned with the podcast, and

Neil and kaylo went with their
wives as well. And on the way

back from one of these events,
we were in a limo all together,

and we were telling stories. And
we happened to tell our story of

when Courtney and I went to a
brothel, grand opening of a

brothel in Pahrump, Nevada, when
we lived out in Vegas,

did they have one of those, like
things that just does out front?

Yeah,

inflatable crazy arm wavy guy,
whatever they call that, a

family guy. They did not have
that. It was, it was a grand

opening that our radio station
was invited to, to do a remote

broadcast there, and, you know,
on the way there. I mean, we're

probably 2625 years all the
time. And my wife's like, you

think they're going to be naked,
you think it'd be walking

around. You think that they're
going to talk to me. You think

they're going to do that. She's
asking me all the questions. I

said, Do you think if I knew the
answers to these questions, you

might be slightly worried? She
goes, good point. I said, I

don't know. I don't know what to
expect. So we told them that

story, and, you know, it was an
amazing night one for the

memories and all this other
stuff. Apparently they came away

from it, kalo and Neil thinking
that we had done this recently,

not 20 some odd years ago. Oh,
wow. So amongst their group,

they're like, yeah, they're,
they're kind of adventurous. I

mean, you know, don't, don't
judge them from the outside.

They Jim and Courtney. They're
kind of living it up. And

they're like, looking at their
you know, if they're doing it,

ladies, I mean, you know, what
are those things? And they

brought him, like, Have you been
to any brothels lately? Jim and

I'm going, Dude, that happened
over 20 some odd years ago. Oh,

total misunderstanding. You just
let him keep going with it.

Yeah. But never been to a
swingers club or anything

yet. Jimbo, you're crazy. What
Fort Worth? Honky Tonk, the

drag. So what do you what are
you listening? What are you

listening to nowadays? Like, you
know, I always talk about the,

you know, keeping up with the
kids, and, you know, you don't

want to be the Get Get off my
long guy. What? What are there

some bands or artists that are
like, light in your fire, or

drummers you're following, or,
man,

I don't know. I mean, I'm bad at
that now, because everything's

so focused on the work you're
doing, focus on the work and the

references that we're working
on, and but I've been doing,

I've been listening to a lot
more like indie artists stuff

and indie pop stuff, and just
kind of just diving into

different things, and I keep a
big playlist of that around, but

I'm, I'm nowhere near as good as
I used to be about, like, living

with records for a long time.
Yeah. And I don't know if that's

just the nature of what I'm
doing, or the nature of how the

world is, or me just being lazy,
but that's, it's just different.

But, uh, I mean, a lot of the
like, the the anything now that

I think sort of challenges my
ideas about production I'm

pretty interested in. So I love
listening to stuff that, you

know, anything that Jack
Antonoff worked on is really

kind of interesting. He just
thinks super differently than I

would on anything. So a lot of
guys out there that I can go up,

okay, I see how you got from
point A to point B. I might get

somewhere similar and not that
guy. I would not have gotten to

that same place from the same
starting point, I don't think.

And you know, a lot of the
Billie Eilish stuff is really

cool and interesting, and just
anything that, to me, just kind

of feels really cool and feels
inventive and fresh. You

could buy a laptop and have
like, a MIDI keyboard, and

you're a brother and a sister,
and you could create Grammy

Award winning, career defining
records in your bedroom.

Amazing. Yeah. And

I kind of got way into the, the
tread lightly on this, the synth

thing, in a way, but as a
supplement to I've like, I've

started really liking putting
instruments on records that

weren't traditionally thought of
as being on those kinds of

records. So sneaking a Moog into
a country record, or moving some

Americana singer songwriter
stuff and some pop stuff

together. So I kind of look for
stuff like that, where people

are just kind of taking some
chances and doing something

different, like a patchwork
quilt, yeah? Like Maggie Rogers

stuff has been really cool. Ian
Fitch did the last one, oh,

yeah. But even the one before
that was awesome. Uh, there's

just been a bunch of stuff out
there like that. That's kind of

like, Great songwriting, and
then really kind of cool and

invented production. Has been so

many new producers in town,
yeah? You know, new

whippersnappers that I, you
know, I'm not running this down,

yeah, it's interesting. People
are going to be chasing you down

because you know you're having
some success, and they're like,

You got to get on that guy's
radar. It's

been fun to stay busy and work
with different people, and

that's been a big focus. Was
trying to work on different

types of music that I find
challenging still, even though

that might might not be the
most. Direct path to to one, one

outcome. It's been a lot more
rewarding. And I feel like in

the last couple years, really,
maybe the last two it started,

I'm looking at the calendar and
going, Oh, I like all the stuff

I'm working on. Like, I like all
the people I'm working with. I

like all the stuff I'm working
on. I don't feel like I'm having

to take stuff to fill in nice

the gaps as much, yeah, you turn
the corner. Because in the early

days, you take everything as,
first as a drummer, you take

everything and then you started
taking everything as a Yeah.

Start all over. Yeah, producer.
And then are you trying to write

with the artist?

I'm doing that a lot more now
too. Yeah, yeah. And so I just

had a an admin go through all my
catalog to upload it, because

I'm terrible about that stuff
and and they sent me this list

back of like, did you write and
produce this? This, this, this

holy crap. I've written a lot
more than I thought I had. And

so, yeah, I've been doing a lot
more right, probably last five

years. A ton of the stuff I
produce, I'm writing some of

with them. That's great. So
basically,

you're in the studio as a
producer, like, mixer, yeah,

first, right? Yeah. And then, so
I had a question about, and

it's, it's like, as you're
talking, it reminds me a lot of

how I kind of progressed in
radio, immersing yourself, uh,

emulating people that you, you
admire. Did you surround

yourself with producers and
mixers engineers and watch that

what they were doing, because
for me to make a radio

commercial sound, not local,
yeah, and make it sound agency

was a big thing for me when I
started out, and I learned all

the different tips and tricks
the hard way. Did you have

somebody pouring into you to
show you? Okay, here's how you

go from making it sound like
you're in a garage to an actual

polished, you know, sweetened
album?

Yeah, that's a good question. I
think because I came at it from

already having been a player, I
didn't come in as a 24 year old.

Let me intern with this producer
and learn everything and be the

assistant. For a long time, I
had to make money like I had to

figure out how I was going to
play and start doing that and

make the time work. And so I did
learn a lot, but I learned a lot

of it from relationships and
connections I built with with

producers that were older than
me, that would let me glom onto

something, or that would come in
and if, even if I was producing

it, I would call them and hire
them and go, Hey, can you

engineer this? But, you know,
make sure I don't fuck this up.

Like, right? Like, make it sound
good. Like, can I? Can I

basically pay you to apprentice
me through this a little bit

amazing. So I did a lot of that,
and then a lot of my buddies,

like, you know, Bobby Holland
was a huge help, who's got a

studio in Berry Hill, and we
worked on a lot of stuff where I

was kind of producing, and so I
was arranging with, you know,

finding the artists, working
with the songs, and arting the

project, arranging the music,
and he was doing all the

engineering and mixing. I also
worked with Jeff Braun a lot,

who I believe works all your
stuff. Yeah, now, and Jeff was

on, he was singing merch on Greg
Bates' bus for a summer, wow,

just to get out and see what was
going on. Did a bunch of indie

records together. And he was a,
he was great because he was

already so talented, and he was
really young, and he was walking

me through all sorts of stuff,
Pro Tools, stuff, mix stuff. He

was kind of the guy that pushed
me to start mixing eventually.

Was like, Hey, you should just,
you should just be mixing this

stuff. You know, you know how to
do that. And so I learned a lot

from the peers too, you know. So
no formal background. Education

is all real world, absolutely on
the job training, yeah, just my

one of my buddies also here.
I'll credit him with this

statement, whether he likes it
or not. Jonathan Roy is a great

mixer in town. Yeah? He says all
the things, yeah. People get

kids ask me all the time how to
get good at mixing, and I just

tell them, you just got to ruin
people's indie records for two

indie records

for 10 years. You got to get an
ear for it, yeah. And know what

to listen for. I mean, even I'm
thinking about putting together

a curriculum for voiceover
talent, aspiring or otherwise,

on how to produce their own
stuff, yeah, so they could spec

projects and make themselves
stand out amongst on the crowd,

which takes an ear. It takes,
you know, okay, I need to fit

this music bed in the context of
the voice and, you know, maybe

pull certain Sonic frequencies
down or pump some up, that kind

of a thing. At what point did
you realize, Okay, I've got,

I've got an ear for this. It

wasn't the early part. Wasn't
that I had an ear for it. It was

that I didn't want to stop until
I got it right. Like I have a

passion for it that I discovered
I was super obsessed with making

the record sound like what I
heard in my head, and so I just

kept asking questions and kept
failing until it's it now, it

gets much closer to what I'm
hearing in my head than it used

to and and then there's the, the
commerce part of it comes in

where, you know, it's, you do
figure out, okay, well, this is,

this has to be done by this
deadline. So you get comfortable

with, how surgical do you get in

terms of, like, well, I'm
imagining a certain kind of kick

sound. Do you get that precise?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I
think it's a big, giant puzzle,

and it's got to fit. Together as
much as possible. So there's

like, there's this two it's a,
it's a really like double edged

sword. May not if that's the
right term, but it, on one hand,

I want the whole thing, every
little piece and component, to

sound exactly the way I want it
to, to fit and be a unique

record, and not something that
we could pull up really quickly

and just go, yeah. But on the
other hand, you do also have to

sort of accept what's happening.
You have to be open to going

like, oh, well, that's not
really what I thought, but

that's kind of working. And
there's a, there's a little

curriculum in the back of my
head, a little little checklist

of like, hey, is this, is this
cool? Is this, like, a good

surprise, or is this going to be
something that we have to get

rid of later, or we have to we
regret. You know, is this

pulling us in the wrong
direction? How

often you got to reset your
ears?

I should do it more than I do
because I sit there for too

long. Yeah, but yeah. I mean
pretty frequently, and it's good

to reference stuff, you know, as
you're going I do, we do more

referencing in pre production
and early production than we do,

like, at some point in the
production process. For me, I

want to stop doing that, and I
want to just go with whatever

we've got. Do

you ever come back into it like
from a night before and listen

back and be like, What the hell
were we thinking? Oh, my. We

were tired infrequently anymore,
but early on all the time. Yeah,

you know, yeah,

it sounded so good last night.
What were we thinking? Right?

You know how you ginger is a
palette cleanser. You know

you're eating sushi or whatever.
So for your ears, you know,

you're probably got this
beautiful chair, beautiful desk,

you have your speakers, and then
you might go listen to it, car,

yeah, on the phone. I mean, how
are the crazy kids listening to

music? They're listening to it
on their phone.

Yeah? I mean, I get mixed
revisions sometimes where

somebody just listened to it on
their, like, their phone. And I

don't mean like earbuds on their
just, I mean speaker phone,

like, sounds great, man, it's
like, no. So I always listen to

the mixes there. You know,
that's the sound we used to do

that in radio in order to test a
spot. Once we were finished.

Obviously, it's, you know, not a
full mix production. It's a

couple of tracks, but we had a
cue speaker in the actual

console, so we would turn all
the speakers down and just play

it through the cue speaker, and
if I could hear my voice cutting

through, that meant it was
extra. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. You know the guy, Pete
Coleman, that engineers all of

our records. He listens to
playbacks soft, yeah, very soft

when we were, when we were
actually using real percussion

for the first, I don't know,
nine records or whatever. There

is a shaker buried on every
Aldean track, and it is this

little glue. It's amazing,
because you could tell the

difference, even if it's buried
in the track. And he will listen

to my execution so softly he
goes, it's, it's just easier to

hear soft. I'm like, wow, yeah,

the detail comes out better
soft. And you're not exciting

the room and getting lied to by
what's going on there

interesting

you have when it comes to
compression and stuff like that.

I know a lot of the tracks over
the past. I don't know, 20 years

you look at, you know, the
waveforms, brick, a lot. They

went from like to brick, nuanced
in the 80s, little, you know,

dynamics, and now they're just,

yeah, is it still like that? Are
we getting back to nuance? We're

getting

back to nuance, I think, in a
lot, and it's genre dependent.

Still, some genres are expect to
be, to be that, like metal,

yeah. And even, I mean, a lot of
times I feel like, like modern

country, like radio country,
there's so many tracks on modern

country, yeah. So those are,
those are pretty, those are

pretty loud, you know, but you
get into the the indie stuff and

the Americana stuff, and those
are really, a lot of those are

cut with vinyl in mind. So
they're, they're a lot more

dynamic, and they kind of keep
them that

way. Have you ever gotten into a
project where you're like, 30

plus tracks deep and the
computer crashes,

yeah, without a save. So you
save frequently?

Yeah, it auto saves. I've got,
like, I'm the guy that, I mean,

remember that was Ableton guy
for a long time, too. So I'm the

guy that people go, Hey, what
should my backup system be? And

I tell them, and they never do
it, but it's, I have my backup

system. That's, that's, it's
cloud and and physical, yeah,

smart,

that's crazy. That's how I would
receive my years. You

think about it, you're met,
you're messing with, like, yeah,

you know, some of these people
are spending $100,000 on a

record or more if there's a
label involved. I mean, this is

like, I tell, I've told other
producers that don't do it. I'm

like, You got to think about it
like you like you're walking

around with a suitcase full of
cash, yeah? And the longer you

work on that project, the more
cash is in that suitcase. And if

it's all just in that one
suitcase and it's unlocked and

you just leaving it on the
floor, that's, I don't feel good

about that. Yeah, whoa, yeah.

It's, yeah. I would reset my
ears when the computer crashed,

and I'd freaking go, the worst

thing that I ever did

is I, but the backup system was
made it fine is I was I put in a

new drive to make a a copy for
the artist of the sessions at.

For mixing was done after
everything was done, and you

have to initialize the drive,
which means you have to erase

it. And it was the same name as
the drive they had given me to

work off of, oh no, and I did
it, Yep, I sure did you erase

the entire erased the entire
drive. But I had it backed up on

my archive local, and I had it
backed up in the cloud, and I

just pulled it right back over
and set it over. It was, it was,

did you?

Did you soil your pants? Oh,
god, yeah. There was, like, that

moment of your heart just
jumping into your throat, cold

sweats. Like,

I mean, I think I jumped up in
the studio and screamed like it

was the scariest thing that's
ever happened. And it took me

about, it took me about two
minutes of just sheer panic

before I really, like, I knew
immediately. I'm like, What's

fine. It's in these other
places. But I've never had to

use the backup before. I never
had to restore anything. It's

like, it's there. I know it's
there. I don't want to look what

if it's not there, and it was
there, and it took one second to

just Boop. Boop.

Okay, cool. Recording four
camera feeds at some of these

podcasts I produce. It's like,
I'm constantly monitoring to

make sure everything's
recording, yeah, just, you know,

it's, it sounds good. We got,
you know, okay, you know, if

something goes out, or maybe I
run out of space on a card, for

some reason, it's like, okay, I
know that's feeding into there,

so I gotta back up there, so
that should be good. Yeah?

Oh, it's like, no matter how
careful you are, because I'm

super careful, I have those
systems in place. It just takes

one time. It wasn't a lost. It
was me. I did it like I made a

mistake and it it that would
have been a huge mistake if I

hadn't. It's a miracle you'll
never make again. Oh, God no,

yeah, because it's like, how
many times I've shot video and I

forgot to turn the camera on
right and hit him record? Oh,

get this.

I have never messed up with 200
and something episodes of this

show, but the same drummer that
I'm a fan of, Mike Miley from

the rival sons, we had a 60
minute gorgeous, flowing,

beautiful conversation. Never
press record. So I remember that

I apologize to him. We set up
another one, and then the audio

was corrupted, and he's like,
I'm like, twice, and then I am

so happy that he reached out.
He's like, Should we try this

again? He goes, I love chatting
with you. Bucha. Like, we're

gonna do it. I just got to make
sure that I get to

call you up and say, okay, am I
being punked? Ashton Kushner,

come out, poor guy, yeah. I
mean, twice. I mean,

it's technology stuff happens,
and it's like, you know? And so,

yeah, that was, that was the one
I had not told that publicly,

that I did that, but it's been a
long time now, and but you know

that it doesn't happen to the
best of the best had, had to,

yeah, you know? I mean, think
about all the stuff that's on

tape that's been lost over
years. You know, it's just gone

well even. But even when you're
recording on tape, it's pretty

obvious if the reels aren't
moving right, you're

not recording, yeah, yeah. Well,
you know, we had, I remember us

all going to a lunch at

those Jackson's, wasn't it
Jackson's before I moved to

town,

and Steve misomo was there, and
I had Steve misomo as a guest,

and he was talking about, you
know, how he got paid all those

years to work at Sony tree and
transfer all those audio

recordings physical to a digital
format. Oh, so he did. That was

his job. Yeah, like, eight
archiving that stuff. And he got

to basically hear the history of
country music coming through

Nashville in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
Pretty, pretty amazing. Yeah.

Chris Mara does all that out.
And welcome to 1979 like they do

all kinds of tape transfer
stuff. It's amazing. Yeah. How

many studio, commercial studios
do you think are in Nashville?

We're talking hundreds, right?
Yeah.

I mean, and far less than there
used to be. But if you count

now, the all the private stuff
like mine that's popped up to

make records, yeah, probably
more than there used to be.

Yeah, no, but yeah, yes. So

an operation like yours is heavy
man and the financial and you

got to have the insurance and
all that kind of stuff. But if

somebody wants to start doing
what you're doing, what's the

minimum that they is gonna they
can have a powerful laptop,

right? Some nice microphones,

yeah, 20 grand,

small interface. I mean, you can
get started for five grand

virtual like a little Mackie
board and, yeah, you don't need

that. You need Apollo twin and a
laptop and I'm in one good mic,

wow. And you can, you can start
making music talented. You can

learn a lot, yeah, or don't be
talented, just suck and work

hard. Yeah, yeah, suck first,
yeah. So

what's the schedule when you is
it artist to artist? Or do you

like to have a particular
schedule? Like, Hey guys, we're,

you know, 10 o'clock, latest?

No, it does. I mean, I have,
yes, I have that, like that

ideal schedule, and that gets
shot to hell frequently, you

know, but it depends on the
artist. I try to run it sort of

the same, the same hours that
that all the sessions work,

because we're using the same.
Players, and they're on the same

schedule, and so we're, you
know, we need to kind of keep

that going. And, yeah, I try to
do mostly morning, afternoon

sessions. The night thing is, is
okay, but because it's usually

just me by myself out there,
it's, it just turns into a very

long day of me. There's only so
much concentration juice in the

in the can over here, so, but we
do them, you know, like, a lot

of the Hazel stuff would be,
would include evening sessions,

because they would come in and
they would do their sessions on,

like, front and back of tour
dates. And so they come in work

a day or two, go out and play
three shows, come in work a day

or two. Maybe not all of them.
Maybe it'd be, you know, Mark

and jet on the first two days,
and then they'd come back in and

and, you know, Ryan would come
do guitar stuff for a day, yeah?

And a lot of times it's like,
you've, you've got to get a

certain amount done before they
leave town, so we can kind of

keep on schedule here, which
means, yep, we're out here until

10 or 11 or 12 o'clock, you
know? And that's fun, though,

when that happens, because
you're also, you're like, that's

like camp, like you're dug in,
focused on one, one thing and

one thing only, yeah, and it's
like coffee and making a record,

and that's, that's, that's all
the world's your coffee intake

is high during the day, during
those days especially, yeah. I

mean, I give myself a score, you
know? I just, I'll do it, do it

with a smile on my face. It's
just a thing in the studio. No,

it's gonna stay away from the
bagel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got

a really good bagel place out by
us too. It's dangerous, yeah,

yeah, when you

were talking about songwriting,
and I guess by app, by accident,

getting into it, you know, while
they're making adjustments to

the song right there in the
studio. I mean, there's like,

steps of Moxie. I guess that has
to happen. I know it did for me,

where you'd kind of like, Okay,
I'll try that. You know, your

little stair steps to where you
want to be, you know, even like,

hey, I'll adjust the fader for
you. And that's how you get into

mixing and stuff like that. I've
always wondered,

I've always wondered,

you know, I've always wondered,
like, if you walk past somebody

writing a song and they're like,
hung up on a phrase and it's

like, right in your head, you
just blurt it out, and you're

like, co write, credit.

Is it worth the old word for a
third?

Is that what that's called? Yes,
no.

I mean, I think especially, more
than almost any other aspect of

of the creative process, from
writing to the the final

product, the writing is not
something I insert myself in

without being asked, asked and
invited, and I'm totally cool to

produce and mix records that I
had no writing on I'm not I'm

not a writer producer that wants
to write the song and then

produce it to make sure it gets
out. But I have found that

writing with artists is a really
great way to develop a rapport

with that artist and develop a
relationship and a trust factor,

and it's just a good way for
them to get to know me, and we

can demo things in the process,
and they can kind of see what

it's like to work with me on
some stuff, and just a good way

to try stuff out before
everybody's on the hook. Are

there people in

that like that in the business?
Oh, there's bug. The word you're

looking for is, indubitably, I
regret it. Well, you know,

you're not really gonna be in
the room on like, just a sole

writer session. But, I mean,
there's more hanger ons when

you're working collectively like
that in the studio. But usually

you know, you know the etiquette
is to be, I mean, every cut that

I ever had with my five little
years of writing songs, I was in

the room with the artist, yeah,
and now I was talking to

somebody. They're not even
publishing companies aren't

signing down the middle
corporate songwriters. They're

hiring artists to develop, yeah,
you know, they're not just, you

know, hiring guys that just sing
Okay, and they can get the

melody across, and they know the
craft of songwriting. They're

hiring just

straight up, artists, staff
writers are in, yeah, not as

much of a in

decline. And demos are in
decline. And there are demos

that are done, but they're
usually done by two people, a

track guy, and somebody that's
going to sing it, right? And so

for us guys that that was, that
was an outlet. There was there

was the demo scene as a drummer,
there was the custom record, you

know, Tex may hand is coming
into town, and he saved $10,000

and we're gonna crank out songs
for him, and boom, he's gonna

cover lunch for us. It's gonna
be a great day. And then there

was the low budget masters, and
then there was master recordings

that get end up on records at
Walmart and Tarjay and all that

kind of stuff. And now the demo
thing completely gone.

Pretty much gone. Yeah, pretty
much gone. So when I met you,

and you were doing all, like,
three sessions

a day every Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, it was a lot of

demos, publishing demos. It was
a lot of custom doesn't happen

anymore, not the demos, really.

No, they do them in the rights
most of the time, you know. And.

And so the the that's part of,
that's more of a scratch

track. I would think, not

anymore. Virtual instruments,
yeah, they sound so they bang

out a lot of stuff pretty quick,
and they get the idea across.

And I do it a little. I mean,
I've seen people that, you know,

they're, they're, yeah, their
track guide demo that happens in

the right maybe gets finished
that afternoon, or whatever,

sounds kind of like a record. I
mean, I don't do that because I

want there to be a big
difference between that and the

record that we're going to
hopefully make. And also want

to, I don't want to pigeon hole
us in with two hours worth of

ideas that we have to now live
with forever, but, but a lot of

times it makes sense to do it
that way. And yeah, a lot of

times I'm filling in as a
writer. I'm filling in whatever

the room needs. If the two, if
there's three of us and two of

them are lyric people, and they
are just, they're they're moving

like I've learned to get very
comfortable just sitting still

and doing nothing. Sometimes
it's just, it's my place, and

I'm here to help where I'm
needed. If it's turning on a

microphone at the end and
getting a scratch vocal, yeah,

that's fine. If it's building a
little bit of a track for you

guys to get going on. Great. If
it's lyric writing with you,

that's great. But I don't, I
don't try to, like, wedge myself

into that

role, and I usually go right for
arrangement and lyrics. Yeah,

when I, when I was the Lyric, I
mean, I guess it's like, a Neil

appear thing. You know, what

percentage of the time do you
guys come across something where

you're like, oh my gosh, great
idea. Just gold. What's the

pretty rare, right? Yeah.

I mean, yeah, yeah. I think it's
gonna be huge. Yeah, yeah. I

mean, if you write with good
writers, hope most of the time

you you can get somewhere that
you're happy with at least. Then

How often

are you saying myself,

this is just garbage. This is
awful. Sometimes,

for sure, a lot of times, a lot
of times, and a lot of times

you, I mean, there are times
numbers game, yeah. And

sometimes you get an hour and a
half into a three hour right?

And look up and everybody just
goes, Yes, isn't happening.

Let's reset our ears. I've got,
I'd make the computer crash.

There's a cat in town, Dave,
Dave Goodwin, and he is also an

artist, and he has this. It's
like pop art. It's almost like

the Warhol Campbell soup can,
yeah, and it says, verse,

chorus, bridge, lunch. Chorus
two, verse two, chorus two. And

it's true, because verse two is
always a problem. Verse Two is

the always the heart. It's
usually always after lunch. Why

is that? It's just coming up
with the next tickets for a

minute there. Like all country
songs had, like little twists in

them. Remember where they had
the twists? Yeah, we're

back to kind of like a some of
those, that double entendre,

yeah, I

can't think of one like

homeboy. Let's just take you
know Eric Church, homeboy, yeah,

you think of what the typical,
what you would imagine? You

imagine a homeboy, yeah, but he
managed to, I think, paint three

pictures off that term in that
song. Totally. That doesn't

really happen anymore. I guess,
like, a

chorus is, like a big idea,
right? So if you come in with

that big idea, sometimes that
falls out pretty quick, because

you're, you're, you kind of know
where you're going. The first

verse sets up that big idea. And
just like maybe writing an

episode of television or a
novel, that second verse is

like, that development. That's
where, that's where everything

has, like, how are we
progressing? Yeah, from now that

you know this big idea now, how
do we, like expand on it? Yeah,

that's, that's why I think it's
always the at least for me,

that's why it's

always challenging. And that
that piece of pop art is hanging

in about 50 different publishing
Yeah, companies on the row. And

I bought one from him, and I
framed it up, and it's in my

house. People, songwriters will
come by and be like, Oh my god,

that is so true. Yeah, you

guys want to be a successful
songwriter. Let me tell you the

secret. Okay, yeah, that book
right back there behind yours

pendulum. We're about to go
through essentially, what was

19? Well, we should be in 1945
right now. So anything that's

like culturally significant from
1945 to 1955 emulate that

what was going on during that
time? I don't know, gotcha, but

basically, everything happens in
cycles. Yeah, everything.

Oh, okay, I see. I just don't
want corduroys to come back.

They're too heavy. Yeah? And I
don't think the noise for oil. I

mean,

I'm in the studio all the time,
the noise,

hey, do you realize we were just
talking about demos, and how

demos have gone away that that I
moved here early enough in 97

that when I started getting into
demos, you know how detailed

they are now kick drum patterns,
and the drums sound like fully

developed and there's soft
sense, and it sounds like a

record, right? And so we're
chasing that. Sometimes we're

copying that with our and then
just applying our own humanity

to it. And but man, back in the
day, the artists would come to

the studio, they would strum an
acoustic guitar. We tap tempo

and on a rhythm. Watch, and they
would say, think this, think

that, think Springsteen, think
Steve Earl, think Emmy Lou

Harris, and we would have to
know the history of music enough

to think about a kick drum
pattern, and we'd have to copy

that tempo. And it would, it
took a while, yeah. And we were

all realizing that on the floor
democratically, of course, with

the songwriter having the total
veto, right, power of veto. But

now it's so fleshy. How about

all those times that they came
in and they played the song and

it sounded just like George
straight, and they said, like,

think Devo and you're going
that. How am I going to do that?

Oh yes, that doesn't work that.
That's not how that works, you

know? But yeah, yeah, yeah,
instead of

doing dude, got it in. Say,
crazy.

But you think that style of
songwriting, and, you know, Song

making will ever make a
comeback, because it's almost

like the evolution of food, you
know, farm to table has now

become very big. I would imagine
music is going to go through

that kind of an evolution, like,
is the music we're listening to

right now, like GMO modified.

I think you're already seeing it
in, like, the the the big word

is the indie world, but like in
the country world, the alt

country world, the Jason is
supposed and those, they're

already, they're already back to
that. It's already very much

humanity, yeah. I mean, you
know, Jason throws his band in

rcaa, and they cut most of it
live on the floor, and they

don't hear the songs, I don't
think, until right that minute

he plays, which is nice, yeah,
you know. And so it's, it's

humanity in it, yeah? And that's
why those things have a huge,

huge fan bases. People feel that
too. And they, you know, both

stool are they still playing
with a click, though,

I don't know. Depends

on the song, like, if they can't
get the feel or whatever. I

mean, it's, it's a tool, but, I
mean, look at Dave Cobbs

production. It's like, so raw.
And the, you know, we had Chris

Powell on. He's like, Dude, I've
used the smallest sticks, and

hits so lightly, and the frees
are just cranked, yeah, it's

like the Joey warrinker thing,
okay, you know, we're, we're, if

sounds great, yeah.

He plays literally, like with
chopsticks, but they sit on huge

and he just, but the engineer
opens up the pres all the way

the compressors, yeah, yeah. Oh,
the compression, yeah, yeah, and

the priest. It's

back when we recorded the big
album for Connecticut, white

bread. Oh,

no, yeah, no. Click, Jim will
mention his band from 20 years

ago. Oh, over three

like 35 years ago. Episode,
yeah, so

yeah, no, click, just play the
song from memory. It was our

demo four song, demo that we
spent $600 on. You sound pretty

good, buddy. No, didn't

it was 1995

like a good, you know, rap rock
drummer before it was cool, you

know, yeah, we had very unsavory
songs. Oh yeah,

they were very salacious. I

did not partake in any of the
songwriting. Just gonna clear my

name right now, before I get
canceled, Jim,

look up some of those crazy
internet questions and pick two

of them. But in the meantime,
what's your favorite

color? Let's go with blue, damn
it. There we go. What's your

favorite food?

Mexican food. So because it says
here on your bullet points. So

you sent me, let's talk about
the best place to get tacos,

right? Is it mas tacos? I think
it's MOS tacos, okay, because I

was right there last night
across the street at lag Lyra,

yeah, Lira, yeah. It's
Mediterranean food. And I had

the fish, I had the chicken, and
I had the lamb, and we had the

potatoes. We had the the the
Middle Eastern, you know, non

type bread. We had humus. It's
not hummus. Hummus, yeah, and I

was digging in with near z. We
had that we share some hummus

together. And that area is
amazing because I also tried the

pharmacy for the first time,
living all these years in

Nashville, had never been there,
never had a pharmacy burger eat

outside. No, it's cold. Oh,
okay, you got to go there when

it's warming up. Awesome, yeah,
but that's where so Larry

aberman And I always go to moss
taco, yeah, and they have the

fried they had the fried guac
and the avocados,

yeah, the fried avocado taco and
the plantains, yeah, yeah.

But what do you like? Just a
street taco vibe, yeah.

I mean, yeah. I mean, all the
time in Texas too. The Tex Mex,

great. Don't you miss it? Yeah?
Remember

they have street corn when you
were there in Texas? Yeah, yeah,

that's, it's delicious. You

can get that from, uh, there's a
place. There's a food truck in

East Nashville. Now that's doing
great street corn. I can really

name it, but yeah, yeah. Last

time I had it was in Miami at
the rusty the rusty pelican. And

it was one of these places I had
to do a shoot down there in

downtown Miami. Yeah, and on the
way to Key Biscayne, it was

like, it looked like a hole in
the wall. So I'm like, this is

perfect. There's a little bar.
Pull up, whatever, have some

dinner. I was gonna head back to
the hotel, and I pull up. It's

like. A luxurious gourmet
restaurant, yes? And I'm like,

Okay, I'm not dressed for this.
Yeah, people are in black tie.

Put me at a seat at the bar. I
had a nice steak and street corn

instead of potato. It was
unbelievable,

amazing. I know you're you and I
were talking about this, but

what is your favorite drink when
you are doing it?

Well, if it was cocktail there,
I became quite an old fashioned

aficionado for a while. So you
make them at the house, yeah?

But I kind of got to where just
a good bourbon on the rocks is

good. That's it. Yeah, bourbon
on the angels envy would be my

nice and they're angels rye. I
mean, it's really expensive, but

it's, it's really good. Now,
what's the

difference again, between the
bourbon and the rides, the

treatments, the process, the
barreling or something? Bourbon?

Basically,

whiskey, yeah, yeah. Whiskey,
yeah. I think it has to be made

in Kentucky. I don't know that
might have been right back

shame.

Podcast, no, we need a guy like
Joe Rogan. Hey, he's on the

computer the whole time. Well,
his name Francis, sometimes

Jamie, sometimes Jim will do it.
What's your favorite drummer of

all time? Man, yeah, it's really
hard because you like one guy,

because he plays ballads great
you you like, you know, yeah,

this person for this I'm still
going with gad. Yeah, best all

around drummer, yeah, in the
history of the universe, yeah.

Plays everything. Feels great
all the time. 80 years young.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing to
think that he's probably one of

these guys that has never rushed
or dragged ever in his entire

life. Yeah,

probably when he's young.

I don't know, who just don't
know. Yeah, maybe he had to

start somewhere. Man, nobody's
perfect. It's always, always

feels very measured, though,
doesn't it? Like, so

intentional,

so intentional, yeah, because
the band could be pushing so far

ahead, and he has the ability to
just sit on it, yeah, but not

make it uncomfortable. It's
like, just, you know, it's all

the time in the trenches, the
10s of 1000s of hours. I just

think it's great that you've
been here for 16 years. I think,

yeah, around 16 years, and you,
you have just grown this amazing

skill set. And you know, you got
a roof over your head, you got a

family. You got the two dogs,
yeah, get a life. Have a life.

It's here, yeah, I parents must
be proud. You still got your

parents. Yes, yeah, Lucky

still have the family. And do
they come visit? They do, yeah,

yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah,
it's, it's, I don't know if you

do this, but it's, it's, so I
bet you do, though, it's easy to

always be looking for the next
thing and ahead, oh yeah. It's

tough sometimes to look, look
around and realize, like, oh

yeah, I've been doing this for
16 years, and I'm not worried

about paying the mortgage and
the hell that happened. Like,

you know, that's good. And that
lasts about three seconds, and

then it's back to, like, you're
like,

worried about the next thing.
Let's get back to let's get back

to securing our relevance. Yeah,
yeah. So much fun. It's amazing.

Well, it's endless. And, you
know, you know, Jim and I have a

common bond is that we're, we're
entrepreneurs, and you

essentially are too, yeah, you
know what? I mean, it's like,

we're all essentially working
for ourselves. Yeah, you gotta

have a business mind, and we do.
I mean, I mean, yeah, I know so

many creatives that don't Yeah,
and many times their career

reflects

that, yeah, it's tough to stay
in it. It's tough to have

longevity if you don't have
enough organization to keep,

keep the business

organizational skills and some I
mean, of course, I take it to a

whole other level. And I'm
probably get tons of shit for

it, but it's just, you know, the
idea of, you know, always

shagging the trees,

yeah, you have to. It's called
prosper. You have to. I mean,

everything's a hustle. And,
like, that's the whole, I mean,

I joked earlier that my half my
life is scheduling. It's not

but, but literally, a third of
my work is developing new

opportunities like that. That is
absolutely like, that is

intentionally, like, 33% of my
time, yeah, is devoted to,

are you going out, like an A and
R guy to check out talent? No,

not a

ton. I do a little bit, but a
lot of mine is, is, is done

through the artists I'm already
working with, the CO writes, and

as long as if I can keep it that
way, I do. And when that starts,

when I feel like the the tide is
pulling out, then I start going

out a bunch more. You know, word
of mouth, referrals, that's

always the best, building
relationships from that small,

little nucleus outward. Yeah,
it's too

bad you never heard Connecticut
white bread. Man, you'd be like,

who says I haven't I missed a
golden opportunity. Jim, what's

your question that you would
love to ask, buddy, which body

part do you wish you could
detach and why?

Lately it's been my right foot,
because it's been killing me.

So, yeah, really,

yeah. What's the most imaginary
from the bass drum?

I think so really, bass drum
walking too much. Yeah.

What's the most imaginative,
imaginative insult you can come

up with,

oh, that's kind of unfair to put
somebody on the spot for it is

true the most imaginative
insult, Hey, look.

Cock face, bear, put you in your
place over there. Cock face, you

look like Andy Garcia stuck his
tongue in an electrical socket.

Oh, my God, it's amazing. I'll
take Andy.

Garcia, you did really good
buddy. You do great improv

comedy. You got to create
something out of nothing. Jim, I

thought you were gonna ask him
about his cover band. He told me

to ask the weird questions,
tribute band.

Okay, what's the tribute, man?
What's the tribute

for the rest of your life. For
the rest of

your life, you can't do anything
else. Oh, it's the only music I

get to play that to the day you
die, you cannot freaking

vacillate. It's got to be the
same song over and over. Okay?

So

that either means one of two
things. You either want to play

music that you love enough to
play all the time, or you want

to play shit you hate so that
you don't ruin something that

you love, and I'm gonna play
something that I don't care for

one way or the other. Yeah,
really, I'm just like, I'll just

pick something like playing like
a Buddy Holly tribute band for

the rest of my life. Because
completely, yeah, that way I

don't ruin any music I love by
just driving it into the

ground. You're not gonna ruin
it. So using your God given

ability to lift this music up,
but use the inspiration from the

original drummer as a launching
pad. What is that? Is it the

police? Is it Zeppelin? Is it
rush? Is it in steely? Dan, ooh,

yeah. I mean, man, the police
might be on that list, right?

Yeah,

because it's, it's super high
energy. Yeah, it's challenging.

It

is, yeah, it has some room to to
play with too. It's not super

rigid, right? Like Stuart's
doing the thing, but he's doing

different things. So yeah, yeah,

his take on his drum parts now,
yeah, 3540 years later, are so

different, yeah, because he's a
different drummer. He's a

different human being. He got
into production, composition,

orchestration. He's another guy
that just went off the rails.

So, so, like I My thing is, I
really am just so impressed,

because, well, you know, maybe I
went off the rails a little bit.

I mean, I went out to Hollywood
and expanded my skill set. I do

motivational speaking. I do tons
of teaching. Yeah, any interest

in

that? Man, I'm getting more
interested in it again now,

yeah, I didn't want to hustle it
for a long time because I was

focusing on other stuff. Yeah.
And now, I think if there were

opportunities to teach,
especially some of what I'm

doing, production stuff, mixed
stuff, to other musicians, I'd

be kind of interested. Oh, you'd
be teaching that, not to drums,

yeah. I mean, I could teach some
drums here and there, but it's,

I'm not, man, that's like
anything else you're doing all

the time. That's a, you know
that the good teachers, that's a

skill set they have. That's a
knife that needs to stay sharp

for it to be really effective.
And I'm not in that, in that

boat right now,

yeah, but you would, even after
wearing an old pair of shoes,

I'd have

to work it up again, yeah,

man, I guess I take it for
granted, because I just do it so

much in different settings, like
I do a one on one, I do it in

person, I do it online. I do it
at drum shops. I do it in music

schools, due to colleges, it's
like, yes,

you can actually hire rich at
the drum tensive, the one one on

it's one on one. Drum tensor,
see, it's a little wordplay.

Drum tensive.com, did

you get that yet? I locked it
down, and I just have to build

the page. Let me tell you guys,
okay, go to drumtensive.com when

it's available, it's gonna be up
there with our merch page

someday and hire rich the guy is
just only $5,000 a day for you

to come in. Damn Jim, well,
you're not far off. That's

$5,000 you'll ever spend. He'll
DJ for you too. He'll DJ for

you. 10,000 you're gonna go to
moss tacos, right? Oh, yeah. And

no, actually, for the drum
tensive, I take him to sushi

steak. I mean, we don't, we
don't fuck around. We

usually go to sushi. That's what
I've been to sushi with you.

Bucha, yeah.

Where do we go? Rousseau's down
in the Gulch. It was kind of,

wasn't done yet. It was, like,
that kind of place. Oh, sorry,

but Jim, yeah, I was promoting
you, I know. But it's like, not

sincere. It's like, really. It's
like, you know, it's fake. It's

like, fake news.

You think I'm being fake China,
it's

no it is genuine. Come on, you
know, I believe,

do I believe in you? I So, so
Ben, if people wanted to get in

touch with

you, are you.com? Guy? Are you?
Yeah, it's Ben Jackson music.com

Awesome. Yeah,

yeah. And you can hear clips of
your work. And you got some

stuff with your pictures of your
studio up there. Yep, there are,

yeah, I gotta drop by some time
come over. I've been invited to

Ray luziers place. I've been
invited to near these place.

I've been invited to your place.
Why not officially, but why

don't we do, like, a video
series of that? We should,

you know what? You'll probably
you know the ever been on the

working drummers podcast with
Matt Krause.

Matt just came out and did the
filming thing. I was gonna say,

yeah, he was just on this,
wasn't he? Yeah,

perfect, because he was
celebrating 600 episodes. He's

killed that. I did that. Thing
forever ago with him, and it's

amazing see what it's done. I
know just

well. The thing is, is this an
endless parade of guests?

Because drummers were just so
thick as thieves? Yeah, you

know. And we love hearing each
other's stories, because your

story is completely unique. We
went to the same university a

decade apart. Had the same
teachers, the same curriculum,

the same influences at our
fingertips. We moved to the same

city, and we're doing completely
different, yeah, yeah, but I'm

just a big fan. I'm happy for
you, and I'm proud of you, man,

thanks, dude. Yeah, man, thanks
for having me on congratulations

today, and I'm proud of you.
Well, thanks, man. Ben Jackson,

music.com Jim, when this comes
out, I think we're going to be

on the verge of appearing at the
Music City drum show, and that's

going to be July 19 and 20.
You're going to be holding down

a booth for us on July 19. On
the 20th, I'm going to pop in,

yeah, and we're going to be
hanging, we're going to be

mugging, we're going to have
books for sale. We're going to

have a step and repeat. We're
going to have a bunch of merch

for the podcast. You can buy
merch. It's going to be great. I

get to field all the questions
of, who are you and where's

rich?

This is very just pass around
the email list, right? Yeah, and

we'll and we'll push these
coffee mugs. People have been

asking for these coffee mugs for
six years. I'll put one

in the studio. Yeah, yeah. Okay,
good. Oh, you're the

gym on the podcast. Yeah, I am.
Oh,

Jim, no. People know all sorts
of things. I tagged Jim McCarthy

voiceovers and it's your
show.co. On every social post,

people were like, We get it.
You're friends for 19 years. You

know it's good though. Hey,
thanks, buddy, yeah, man, thanks

really, really appreciate it
continued success, Jim, thanks

for your time and talent and to
all the listeners. Thank you. We

really do appreciate you. Be
sure to subscribe, share, rate

and review helps people find the
show until next time. Take care.

Thanks, guys, this

has been the rich Redmond show.
Subscribe rate and follow along

at rich redmond.com forward,
slash podcasts. You.