The Rich Redmond Show

Unknown: You still get people in
Nashville who will dog it

sometimes, and they'll just be
like, Oh, I hate DW. I'm like,

Why? Why? Because it's

a drum that practically tunes
itself and always sounds

consistently good and has sexy
finishes and has an amazing

corporate culture. And so

whenever somebody, when I see
on, especially on the Nashville

drummer page, you know,
somebody's just going, we're

just talking about the last
episode, how they hate DW for

whatever reason. As soon as they
do, I look, I go, That guy's

never toured, or he's never done
a fly date. And if you ever get

dw, if you have a backline, if
you fly, and there's a backline

kit, your options are Pearl,
Yamaha dw, maybe tama, maybe

Gretch, probably not. And so,
you know, it's available all

over the world. The Big Three.
Those are Yamaha pearl. This is

the rich Redmond show. Your

guests are always like, Are we
recording? And you're like, Oh

yeah, we've started, yeah,

yeah. Like, what we're doing
now? Oh yes. Have

we started? Yeah, yeah,

and we've started.

But obviously we're going to
leave out the part about we

that's,

that's not part record. Oh, we
just have talked about a million

things off record that would
just be so entertaining, but

they're off record, guys, okay,
that's right,

there's a reason why they're off
record, okay? And the thing is

that you have to make them off
record, but they're fun things

to talk about, but they kid us
cannot see the light of day. No,

they just can't.

That's right, that's right, I
just can't. But it was just so

entertaining for me. Now, this
gentleman that we have in studio

today, I don't know if you're
assuming, if you're keeping him

behind the digital curtain right
now, but I'm just so excited to

introduce him, because we have
been trying this for a year, but

he's so busy. It's actually a
resume. I am, like, in awe of

this. I don't know. It's only 24
hours in the day, hailing from a

small town in Wisconsin and
calling Nashville home since

2012 I mean, look at this. This
guy is going between all these

amazing gigs a decade with
Grammy Award winning Scott Stapp

of the band creed. He's a
founding member of the of the

pop punk band Amber Pacific.
They're celebrating 20 years.

He's also been doing dates with
Hawthorne Heights, killer band,

long time, long time member of
the platinum selling worship

band, Sonic flood. And then he
plays with grace. Got bands like

red fire flight, super chick,
all time, low David Cook and the

country world. He's out there
with Mark Willis, Craig

Campbell, Josh Grayson, the swan
brothers, Tim Duggar, he studied

music with Chester Thompson and
Brian fullin at Belmont

University, talking about our
friend dango Kellen. What's up?

Man, hey, thank you for having
me. Yeah, no, I've got to get to

rock, dude. It is just a long
time coming. Mad respect. Man, I

mean, you are slapping back
beats all over the world for

just a wide variety of artists.
Man, congratulations. Thank you.

You're doing it. You're living
the dream. Man,

I'm so thankful I'm living the
dream, but the goal is to do it

with one artist, yeah, able to
pay all your bills. Yeah, I've

got a friend Rich who does that,

but you have the hustle. And
that's, there's something that's

so exciting about the hustle and
having to, like, hunt and gather

for your living, and then you
balance that. I mean, you gotta,

you got a new family, you got a
new house. You're doing drum

tracks from your studio, you're
teaching. I mean, there's moss

is not growing under your feet.

That's true. I do hustle, and
anybody who lives in Nashville

can appreciate that, because we
kind of all do that, no matter

what instrument you play, or if
you're studio guy or whatever.

Live guy, studio guy, engineer
player like that's what we

respect about this community, is
guys and girls hustle, and they

know how to work, and they'll do
it day after day after day until

you see some fruit from it. So
I'm super thankful that I've

been, I guess, building this
things long enough year after

year to where they're finally
coming to fruition, and I'm able

to juggle it, because just
finishing a two month tour is

long, but I'm gonna jump into
lessons tomorrow, and probably a

session tomorrow, then I'm do a
Broadway shift tomorrow night,

Broadway shift Friday, and
that's just how that's how we

roll

lessons sessions, Broadway. Now
this is interesting concept,

because Jim and I talk about
this a lot with our guests, the

idea of doing Broadway in
general, because there's a lot

of like, young bucks that are
moving to town that are very

opinionated, like, Oh, I'll do
that. Or they're like, No way,

I'm not gonna do that. And then
there's, you know, there's guys

like me, where it's like, you
know, I started touring, and

then I never went back down
there. But then you're doing

like, four huge gigs, and then
you'll go down there and work,

work the muscle, make the money,
I

it, but isn't like the Broadway
thing kind of highly coveted

now, right? Well,

what's your thoughts on that?

Because we'll give you my take,
and I'm not, because there's

three stages

down there. First of all, I
gotta say, on camera, dude, you

look like an MMA fighter. Okay,

maybe that's another I've been
hitting the weights this tour.

I'll take

it is colorful. I love it. Dude,
thanks.

You look like you're about you.
Be able to freaking choke hold

us anytime you watch

the MMA, no. And I've never been
in a fight in my life, so I

know me too. I get out of my
fights with humor. I believe

that for you, you know what I
do, I take a look. No, there's a

guy that's coming up to me and
he's sticking out his chest, and

he's usually taller than me. I'm
like, Oh yeah, you gonna rough

me up. I'm half your size. MFR,
and then they just start feeling

really bad about themselves, and
they just shuffle away. How

often does that happen? Couple
times in my life, people have

witnessed it. Never become
friends by the end of that

recently, though, no, not
recently. Yeah, you can't, you

can't risk your hands. Oh no,
yeah, dude, cut my hand 25 days

ago. Five stitches right here on
the money maker, the backbeat

money maker, right where the
stick sits in your fulcrum, and

my whole career flashed before
my eyes, and the miracle of the

human body and modern medicine,
I am so pleased right now.

That's great. Stuff is scary. So
Broadway, yes, okay, so I got

into it just before the
pandemic, maybe like 2018 I was

pretty late to it when I came
here and went to Belmont, I

didn't like country. I wasn't
gonna try country. And then when

I was living in Seattle, playing
in that punk band I was looking

to move back, I started watching
CMT. My kind of party was one of

the I've never told you. This
was one of the first videos. And

are you gonna kiss me or not,
which conveniently, you played

on both those songs. Wow. But
both of those videos had

tattooed guys in them. And I was
like, Well, this is pretty

catchy. This is like, rock.
There's just a southern accent.

I could get used to this. I
still evolved. Those two songs

specifically made me start
listening to country. And so

when I moved so that would have
been around like, 2012 or

something, right about the time
I moved back 2010, 1112, right

in there. So I moved back down
here, and I was like, I'm gonna

get into country. So I started
listening studying country. I

still didn't even dabble in
Broadway yet, because you got to

know a zillion songs. But I got
my first road gig with Craig

Campbell, like 2013 and he was a
country dude. He only sang

country. He hated rock. He hated
my tattoos. Oh, really, yeah,

back then, especially now he's
got a sleeve. We've joked No

way, yeah, but he used to call
me sleeves. Anyways, this is so

this is leading into my
Broadway. So I went from him to

like, Swan brothers, Josh
Grayson and kind of all the

country gigs I landed were all
like country people, not bro

country not like guys that
wanted rock guys. They were all

like, pretty real country
singers. So I started just

studying and studying. I was
like, I don't know if I can get

into Broadway, like this, 200
songs to get started. And and,

yeah, I knew Johnny Cash, but I
didn't really know Merle

Haggard, and I didn't know
Willie, and I didn't know Hank

and so I started learning the
stuff, and I jumped in. And my

first couple gigs is, like, you
make 150 bucks and you're

sleeping your own bed. You're
like, well, that's not bad. You

know, some of the road gigs
don't pay that much better than

that. So I started getting into
it. And I will say now I do it

where I'm pretty selective, and
I play with people I want to

nice that I either know we're
gonna make money or I just know

they're really good, and so I
enjoy it. So it's fun people,

music wise. But I'll tell you,
Broadway has probably changed so

much because I talked to older
guys than me who were like, we

used to do it for $63 a shift,
or $48 a shift. You know, I'm

thinking, I don't know that. I
want to work four hours for

that, but I can be down there on
a weekend, play with a good

band, and now I'm actually play
with one regularly, and we can

make three to 500 bucks a shift,
which is great money for playing

in town.

Four hours dollars to stay in
town and sleep in your own bed

is great. And when we play

kid rocks, we can kill it on a
shift and make 800 or $1,000 a

man with a six piece band, it's
awesome. And only make $100 base

and still make that. So that's
pretty amazing. But when I look

at us as road guy, like, Yeah,
I'd done the road 15 years

before Broadway, there was this
huge discrepancy of, like, your

road guy, you're a Broadway guy.
Road guys are too good for

Broadway guys. Broadway guys
work way harder than road guys.

There was just always this
tension. Tension. Now everybody

does everything they kind of do.
And the pandemic made guys do

that, just like home recording.
But now that I've done it, I can

tell you there's so many great
players down there, and I've

played with guys down there who
I'm like, You're unbelievable.

Why are you not on the road? And
they're like, I'm not gonna go

play for 300 bucks out of town
when I can stay home and make

five and sleep in my bed. Thank
you tourism. Yeah. And so you

really have to wait, because now
I say, I've seen great players

on the road, I've seen great
players in town, and there's

just guys and girls doing it on
both ends of the spectrum. And

I'm like, I don't see why you
don't do both, if you can. Yeah,

the hard thing is, I'm gone so
much that I end up losing gigs

in town, and gigs in town wants
you to stay home and say, don't

take that road thing. Stay here
for Broadway. And I'm like, I

get that. But at the same time,
I didn't move here just to do

Broadway. I'm not knocking it,
but no, I love that you're

sprinkling in it, yeah. And to
me, it's like, well, if I have a

family and I want to provide
playing drums, then I'm not too

proud to do any of it, just
like, teach the lessons

tomorrow, do a session from my
spot, then go play a gig. I

might make 700 bucks tomorrow,
but I didn't make anything

today. So to me, it kind of
balances out, like, that's a

good you know, every couple
days, if you can do that, or if

I teach three or four lessons
tomorrow, gig, the next day,

whatever, I just try to do
something

six days a week. Bring that mic
a little bit closer. We want to

hear what you're saying. I just
try

to do something about six days a
week where I'm making money,

yeah, and I'll work a seventh.
But I'm really trying to get

better about resting one of the
day a day of rest. And you

have. Have a new family? Yes,
and I'm looking at, I, I'm not

gonna tell anybody what it is,
but I'm so happy that you are

charging more than $1 a minute
for a drum lesson, because I

harp on this all the time, yeah,
a masseuse studies for six

months to a year, and they
charge $1 a minute, and then

they get, usually get a $20 tip.
So they make $80 an hour. And

they do that multiple times a
day, multiple days. Pause,

right? My wife is a massage
former massage therapist, but

her education is only that's the
proper term, by the way. What's

that? Massage Therapist? Did I
say masseuse? No, sorry, so, but

I love Courtney, but what I'm
saying is she charges more than

$1 man, she's It's a dog. Now

she's retired because her
freaking fingers are going all

different directions, but it
takes a toll on the body. And,

you know, she got paid 175

in Vegas. Well, that's
fantastic. I'm talking about,

yeah, but I agree

with you. I think that, you
know, there's a tremendous

disparity to understanding what
your value is. And a lot of

people in the creative realm
like to spout, especially in the

voiceover realm, know your
worth, know your value. Nobody

cares, yeah, until you can
articulate and sell the value.

Yeah, okay, and make you know,
it happened to me yesterday.

Somebody wanted me to, want to,
you know, Ben, to go out and

shoot for and only get paid for
two hours. I'm like, No, it's a

half day minimum. Shoot, video,
shoot, video, yeah. And I said,

that's what we charge. It's a
reasonable rate. Well, you can

get it done in two hours. I'm
like, Dude, there's travel,

there's setup, there's the shoot
for two hours, and then there's

coming back and unpacking
everything. It's

not just two hours, it's eight,
yeah, yeah, no. But i i champion

that, because we talk about this
a lot, and I just think there's

this race to the bottom, and a
bunch of creative, creative

people. You've got 30 years
experience of playing the drums.

So whoever's taking a drum
lesson with you is not just

getting some, you know, new guy,
that's just, you know, they show

you the syncopate. I mean, you
got all the time in the

trenches. That's great. So I
like that.

Thanks. I feel like I'm very
reasonable. I'm $40 for a half

hour, which is you can go to
Guitar Center, yeah. And so I

just look at it like, and I
really do 75 an hour even. But

anytime a parent asks me about
it, I just say, Well, I've been

playing professionally 20 years.
I've been teaching 15. So I'm

hoping you're buying my
experience more than your kid

learning a paradiddle like I'm
trying to keep your kid. I'm

trying to guide them along the
way with some mentoring as a

person and skill sets beyond
just what they're learning on

the drums, and if you can't
afford it, I totally understand

that, because not every family
can, but for my time, I can't,

you know, I'm not doing $20
anymore or whatever, because I

have a family, and most people
with a family like, Oh, okay.

But the thing is, is making them
realizing I'm helping you solve

a problem that you have, which
is, when they have lessons with

me, I typically find that the
parents don't have to fight them

to go to the lesson. Yeah, they
look forward to me. They look

forward to it. They enjoy the
lesson. They you know, I'm good

with kids. You know what I mean,
huge. Because I mean, how many

times I had to fight my kids?
You got time for guitar? I don't

want to go if

you're listening to this
podcast. It means you're already

looking to improve your
drumming. Why not level it up?

In person with me when you book
a one on one day drum tensor,

drummers from around the world
have traveled to Nashville to

study with me. We cover subjects
like reading, rudiments,

technique, hand development,
charting the national number

system, styles, percussion,
music biz, insider info, career

development, positive mindset
and much more. Of course, we

address all your questions, and
my deep curriculum has helped

players of all kinds move the
ball down the field to be closer

to their goals, even getting
accepted to college music

programs, moving to that dream
music town, getting gigs and

keeping them. Find out more
about my one on one day. Drum

tensive go to drumtensive.com D,
R, U, m, t, e, n, s, I, V,

e.com, drumtensive.com have a

podcast that needs a facelift,
or maybe you're just starting

out and want to hit the ground
running. At it's your show.co.

We help you produce, rebrand and
elevate your podcast, led by

industry vet Jim McCarthy, a 25
plus year voiceover, music and

talk radio Production Pro. Jim's
got the gear, the experience and

the gear to take your show from
average to unforgettable.

Podcasts are one of the most
powerful tools to grow your

brand, connect authentically and
build trust with your audience,

but sounding like a pro, that's
what sets you apart. Visit. It's

your show.co. Today, and let's
make your podcast sound like it

should. So

do you ease them into it where
you're like, hey, we're gonna

play back in black, and then
I'll show you why this is

important skill to have it. Or
do you start them with the

traditional pedagogy? This is
how you hold the stick. Here's a

flam here's a paradiddle. Here's
page 38 of the syncopation. And

then eventually we'll get to
rock and roll. I

kind of jump in wherever they
are at already. Most kids, if

they want to take lessons, they
can either already play a basic

beat, or they're excited about
it, or their parents wouldn't

try it. So I try to start them
with. Practical things. It's not

as conventional. It's not all
those things you said. And I

wish it was a little more of
that, because I I'm more

unstructured, and I sort of do
different things for every kid.

I don't have, like, this is the
day curriculum that we're all

doing. Yeah, it's like, I've got
a book for different kids, and I

just keep building off whatever
they're working on. So that's

cool. One kids, you know, on six
eight for six weeks or 10 weeks,

and one kid's like, we're doing
some basic Latin, and another

kid's like, well, we're still
working on that paradiddle, and

you don't have it yet. So yeah,
it's just kind of, I just kind

of go with wherever they're at.
I keep pushing them. And then

there's always one or two my
students that are really good,

who are either, like, one just
went to college on a music major

that felt like a huge success,
because I probably had him for

10 years, right? But you have a
couple like that who are just

always pushing you, like, Okay,
I gotta come up with some stuff

this week. So I'll sit down in
my practice time and go, right,

what am I gonna teach him? And
it's usually, re, you know, I'm

usually rehashing something that
Chester or Brian, one of my

teachers taught me, or something
I got on, you know, you're

standing on the shoulders of
giants, yeah, yeah. It's like, I

have so much to draw from. And
my thing is, how do I get this

kid, student, adult? All I've
got to do is get them to the

next level and still be excited
about drums. That's the is

it about finding out their why?
You know, like when I took

lessons once upon a time, many,
many, many decades ago, I wanted

to, I self taught a lot of what
I know. And at one time I, you

know, everything was just very
linear in the way I played. And

then I saw, like, Neil Peart
play in a show of hands, and his

drum solo, he was accenting. And
I was like, what is that? You

know, he's like, he's doing
these little, like, soft notes

in between, yeah? And it's like,
I had no idea what it was, but I

had the, I'm like, I want to
learn that. That sounds cool.

The Why was established, you
know what I mean? So I just, you

know, I sat down and my drum set
downstairs, and I was like,

okay, that's Yeah, and it's
getting the uncomfortable, you

know. And then, and then started
understanding accents and stuff

like that, understanding the why
of paradiddles to let them okay,

when you master this, look, what
you can do is that how you

approach it? I do

that a lot, where I'll show them
sped up, like this is what we're

going to do with this, or this
is something around the kit.

Here's a few fills to do with
it, but I say this is why we're

doing this. I don't want to
waste your time. I'm not going

to make you learn every
rudiment. I'm going to make you

learn some. And then you can go
from there and learn others if

you want to. But I'd say half my
students have enough care to

even process it like that and
go, Okay, I want to learn this.

Or can we work on this, or watch
this? The newer ones, a lot of

them, they just don't care.
Like, what are we doing this

week? Okay, yeah. Like, you
could explain it and be like,

okay, so then you're just,
you're sort of competing with

the technology and, like,
they're going to be right back

on their phone or tablet as soon
as the last soon as the lessons

over. So then you're just trying
to keep them engaged, because I

think a parent is paying me to
not babysit, but to essentially

keep them wanting to come back
to Lessons. And that's sort of

the other Yeah, they may not be
awesome, but they're going to

still love drums, like, I don't
want kids or adults burnt out on

music, because all we did was
just drill the

the math. You find yourself
being like a therapist

sometimes, occasionally, you
have a couple

students like that, if they've
been with you a long time, and

they want to sit and talk about
things, or they're older, you

know, I say older, but like, 20s
or 30s. Sometimes a student like

that, and I'll want to hear how
their life is, or how they're

teaching now, and how their
lessons are going, and that sort

of thing. I've one student in
Canada I've had for like, a

decade. He was a fan of my punk
band, and he's just started

teaching last year. And I love
that, because he'll talk to me

about his lessons and show me
something. I'm like, What are

you showing them? Like, what if
you break it down more simple?

You assume these kids know, but
they don't, and you could make

that easier. And so he's like, I
just love you're so right. You

said, once I started teaching,
I'd understand why I wanted to

explain things. I'm like, the
easiest you can make it is going

to make it so much better
explain

it to a fifth grader. Yeah,
right, yeah. Now your your drum

parts with that Amber, that
Amber Pacific band, great,

because I think we were about to
do this interview maybe like,

four months ago, and I was doing
a deep dive on all the all of

your body of work. And I was
like, Dad, those are great drum

parts. I mean, it was like, was
the band? Did the band kind of

come up at the same time around
the some 40 ones and the blink

180 twos and all that.

Oh, for sure, our years on
Warped Tour were the early 2000s

those bands were big blink and
Green Day were, like the massive

mainstream. But we landed the
same time as, like, Fall Out Boy

and my chemical romance, and a
lot of those, just the pop punk

and emo stuff all hit around
then. And so some 41 yellow

card, a lot of those bands we
toured with. So yes, I was in my

early 20s or mid 20s. I was just
done with Belmont. I was like,

I'm going to show the world. I'm
going to play the coolest stuff.

And it's funny, because I look
back now, especially this year,

Amber, Pacific. It's our 20th
anniversary. We did new record

in January. It came out in
January. So we recorded

Nashville. And I said, how would
I play this in my 40s as a

mature drummer, versus what I'd
have done 20 years ago? So I

said, I'm not gonna pre come up
with the craziest parts. I'm

just gonna play for the song. Do
some cool stuff, but try to play

for the song, yeah, which sounds
very Nashville, but. Those early

records. I listened back, I was
like, that is so busy. And yes,

I executed some cool things, and
I really worked on them. And

this was, yeah, there was Pro
Tools, but it was like, You, I

mean, you had to play stuff. And
yeah, and we were doing

everything on the click, which
in punk rock was not common. We

played to a click Live, but I
was very anal. We were on Warped

Tour playing to a click Live.
And I remember one time Brooks

Wackerman, who was one of my
favorites. He was in bad

religion. Now he's in avenged
seven. In Avenged Sevenfold, but

he's standing behind me, and
he's like, man, your timing is

just so good after the set. And
I said, Well, man, I play to a

click. And he said, You do that
live. And I'm like, You're

Brooks Wackerman, like you're
one of the guys. I look up to

him, and Josh freeze and yeah,
he couldn't believe it, but that

was just why, when I went in to
do the records, my timing was

really good. That was very
common. Yeah, yeah. And now,

everybody, you know, everybody's
got tracks, all the metal bands,

everybody's on click now, but
back then, yeah, not common,

unless you were in a huge
mainstream act. So that helped

me a lot of my timing developing
to play fast, but also it was

fast stuff. So didn't really
translate to Nashville at all

coming back, but

very creative. You do things
like, like, like, on a bell. You

did? Gosh, yeah.

And that's a lot of that. There
was a lot of Travis Barker in

that area. He was the guy that
put it mainstream. But the

bands, there was also a lot of
the fast punk bands, no effects

and strung out and lag wagon and
MX, px rise against a lot of

these bands had fast drummers
who did cool stuff. They just

weren't household names. Travis
Barker really put it into the

mainstream of like, oh, you can
play busy, yeah, if it's in this

genre. So now

he's a Kardashian. So, well,
yeah, he married. He's married.

He married a

Kardashian. He was married to a
Playboy Playmate for a

while. He was so all that to say
a bad breath.

Even hot girls have halitosis.
He

did. Came into my radio studio,
my production studio, and I was

like, Hey, how's it going? Oh my
gosh, okay, let's go take the

picture. It's

amazing. Jim,

so I look back, I'm really proud
of those records, especially for

the era they were, yeah, I wish
that band had been able to get

bigger, but we had a great run.
We had some videos on MTV. I

mean, it

was a band, band, right? So you
were like, yeah, it was a game

you got publishing. And you're
like, selling hoodies, and

you're like, taking shifts,
driving the van, you're deciding

what the cover the record's
gonna be,

yeah, all that. And kids came to
shows who were like, fans, and,

you know, fans of your drum
parts. And I had a drumming DVD

I put out. Of a lot of those
very early on, you're an early

adapter, yeah? And so, for
example, this tour I just did

with Hawthorne Heights, we came
up at the same time as them. We

shared a bus with them back in
the 2000s so I go way back with

these guys, but I don't really
talk about Amber Pacific a lot

when I'm out there. But we were
doing a VIP. And last week, a

kid, a kid, you know, a 35 year
old kid, comes to our 35 year

old kid, you know, we're signing
all these Hawthorne Heights

records, and he pulls out the
first Amber Pacific record, and

he had done his homework. He
knew I was on the road, and he's

like, Hey, man, I've never met
you. I'm a huge fan. It was so

touching, because it's a, you
know, an album from 2005 that I

signed this week. And those are
super rewarding, because you

don't kind of so the so you go
way back with the Hawthorne

guys. So when they needed a
drummer for whatever reason,

they were like, Hey, remember
that dude from way back? Yeah,

and

we'd kind of amber Pacific had
always opened shows for them

here and there. I mean, they had
sold a few million records, so

they were a different
stratosphere than Amber Pacific,

but always cool guys, great,
down to earth dudes, family

guys. And so they called me and
right around Thanksgiving and

said, Hey, can you fill a couple
shows? I said, Man, I'd be

honored to like, You guys are
awesome. And by the time I

rehearsed with them, Poppy, the
previous drummer, had been there

decade, and he just just like,
I'm done. I quit. I'm done with

the road. And I was buddies with
him. He just hit a point where

he's like, I don't want to be on
the road anymore. So it wasn't

any bad blood

at all. Isn't it funny how that
does happen to people like it

does?

Yeah, you just burn out, or you
just hit a point. And he just

hit 50. And I think he was like,
you know, I think I want to try

some other stuff in life. So I
kind of,

drumming is a lot of work. It's
the because I was a huge fan,

really enough bad religion,
yeah. So, I mean, he big fan of

theirs. I love their music, and
I listen, you know, back in the

bobby Shea or years and stuff
like that. And when they were

open, when they, I just moved to
Vegas, and they made the

announcement that he did the
part of the band. I think he

blew out his shoulders or
something, and like, Hey, we're

auditioning. I'm like, oh, I
should audition. And then they

hire Brooks, and I'm like, Yeah,
and it's funny, we'll talk about

night and day that first album
they did. It was like, Oh my

gosh. Just energy and just, he's
such a player. Yeah, goodness.

What a beast.

The weird thing I have about
some of the punk bands, like

super fast stuff, like, I start
hearing the upbeat snare as the

downbeat.

I get that. I did it around. I
did it first. But once you hear

it, it's also about the
production in the mix, if it's

mixed well and the guy's really
solid, yeah, you can feel it.

And I think on our records, when
you hear that beat, you can feel

it because of there's a couple
differences how you accent the

kick. I know it's pointless to
get into but a few of my guys, I

could go I can hear it without
you telling me who it is, and

I'll know by the kick drum what
band it is, because I've studied

that

beat. It's like, like, what?
Like, Josh with the Vandals is

flawless, yeah. I mean, just his
speed, dude. It's so Josh freeze

is my number one. Like, if I
could be anybody, because he can

play for everybody. He can do
it, but he still did the punk

thing, but then he can do Foo
Fighters. Since there's

something about punk that I felt
like I missed out on because

there's, you know, in in
country, I tell all my students,

you're going to be playing a lot
of songs between 69 and 89 BPM,

because it matches the strum
pattern of an acoustic guitar

when where songs are being
written. That's just the sweet

spot of that particular genre.
So a lot of the stuff that just

becomes part of our DNA playing
this genre is that is the

bottom, even high heads gonna be
a lot of douche do, gosh, do you

know so? But I never got to play
the super fast stuff, because

you have to. It's another mental
switch, because the time is

going by faster. So, but are you
thinking 12341, it's more.

You're thinking probably almost
cut time, right?

What's funny is we call it. This
isn't a this is not the correct,

correct musical term, but we
used to analyze this, and we

call it triple time, because
you've got straight time, 123,

cut time, 121, and two and three
and then twice a and lots of

times, all of ours were over 200
BPM, and that's kind of how my

band did it. So we'd be going to
get it and your kick, and it's

very specific, that has to be
single foot. If you play it with

double kick, it's metal, it's
cheating. So it's got to be it's

got to be single

so your right foot is killed. My

right foot is very good at that.
One thing,

your right calf is, like, so
much bigger than your left calf

right. But

if we get on the right foot
thing, what's interesting for me

as well as I've had six knee
surgeries. I've had a bone

transplant in high school on
that knee because of drumming,

no, because of a bone disease.
And so it ended sports. I

thought I was gonna go to
college for sports. Was my

dream. But I was like, I guess I
can still drum, they said. So I

was like, I guess I'll go to
Belmont and try drumming full

time. So I did that, but I've
had six surgeries on it. I've

done a tour with Amber Pacific
with just my left leg. How'd you

do that? I just practiced. You
put a double kick down there.

And I'd in college. Chester gave
us so much backwards, left

handed stuff, that I just did
it. But, and then a couple years

ago, it's been five now, but
I've had a total knee

replacement on that kick leg. So
six surgeries on this leg. I

have so much arthritis in my
right leg, and

a knee surgery is akin to a
shoulder surgery, because it's

it's painful and it takes

forever. It does, yeah, how long
was the PT and the recovery

there, the knee replacement and
the bone transplant. My first

and last were the worst they
reached, like, six months,

probably. But that all that said
I can still play arthritis or

not? Like, yeah, you can
complain whatever I play in

pain, and there's a lot of
things I can't do, maybe that I

could previously, but I can play
music, and I can walk, and even

if I walk with a limp, I can't
run a jump anymore, but it's why

I exercise. I try to stay
relatively fit and try to keep

my weight down, because it's
just extra stress on the knee.

Do

you like, even when you're
playing those beats? Because,

you know a lot of guys, you
know, you'll probably see Lars

do it sometimes, but they'll
just kind of, like, when it gets

too fast,

they never cheat the hand.
That's not punk rocket. You have

to do. You have got to, you
know, always yes. And I can tell

you, there's drummers like
yellow cards. Drummer LP was

amazing, but he played the fast
beat going get he cheated the

same time. Yeah, I can tell you,
every drummer who's done it that

way. But that aside, we're
talking about like, I still play

punk rock, right? I almost never
play punk rock. That was like,

doing the record this year was
so fun, because I never play

fast anymore. And then now
coming out with Hawthorne

Heights, they're more like pop
rock drumming, like there's

nothing on there that you would
go mid tempo. It's all mid

tempo. There's nothing there
that you would say, is that

different than what you would
play on a nightly basis? Yeah.

And then with Scott Scott's
music, Scott Stapp, you're

recreating Scott Phillips drum
parts, yeah? But we got to brag

on you, you're on the latest
single that hit modern rock

radio, right?

Yeah. And so most of playing for
Scott the last 10 years has been

play due respect to the Creed
songs, massive hits. You're not

reinventing the wheel. Nobody
wants to hear dangos opinion on

how creed should be played. They
want to hear creed. So for me, I

always try Don or Scott Phillips
part playing as close to I can.

I, you know, put a little bit of
my flavor in there. I probably

played it six or seven years
exactly as close to the record

as I physically could. And then
at some point we'd been the same

band, and all the guys were
like, Why don't you ever do your

own thing? And I said, Well, I
don't do that. This is national

we respect the original artist.
They're like, just do your own

fills. Staff's not going to
care. And I started doing it.

And that's one thing I'll say
about Scott, he does not really

care what the drums are playing.
He's real particular on guitars.

But I just started adding fills,
not crazy like try to be

tasteful musical, but just make
them sound more like dango

playing creed, and not just
creed, playing creed, because

they're going to hear creed
again eventually, and now they

finally have this year. So I've
tried to do it like that. And

then when I played on Scott's
latest record. Like it was more

of playing what the producer
wanted me to play. It wasn't

like I was putting a ton and you
did it from your home. I did it

for my studio, which is pretty
cool to say. You know, have a

song that charts from my studio,
but on modern on modern rock, I

believe. So yeah, because it was
the top five for sure, I don't

think it went to number one, but
it may

have. And that was the last
three creed songs are a lot of

cutting the hi hat, man,

that is such a cool signature
thing. You're in the middle of a

ballad, dude. It's

just,

yeah, I remember being in high
school in the 90s, late 90s,

when those records were big, and
just thinking, like, that was

his signature. So every
drummer's like, Dude, you play

the high. I'm like, how could
you not? That's like, his bread

and butter. That's what put him
on the map. Are you guys

friendly? I have never met Scott
Phillips. We love 10 years with

Scott, and you've never met
Scott? Well, I don't think they

were on the best terms as far as
creed and Scott, I couldn't tell

you personally. I don't know the
other I've never met any of the

rest of the guys in creed. But
now that they're back together

and they're doing a reunion. Who
knows? Maybe I will meet them?

Oh, who are the other guys in
Scotts band? Are they old

Nashvillians?

No, and there's been some change
over a little bit. But no, I'm

actually the only one that lives
in Nashville

now. Are they, are they going to
tour with Limp Bizkit? You think

because they they were

at odds, they used to have a
beef. Scott has told has said

that him and Fred, Fred are on
great terms now, I think just

the older you get, you look back
like,

whatever. What were we doing?
Yeah, I saw Fred in the in the

audience at the recent Metallica
shows here in Nashville. Biscuit

opened for Metallica. Yeah, the
nights. And it's funny, because

you see all these guys that are,
you know, used to be in their,

you know, not dare I say, in
their prime, but, yeah, they

were in their 20s, you know. And
you got John Otto, and he's

playing like he's my age, you
know, it's like, Dude, it's

really, I'm getting back into
playing now, like, you know, but

I'm setting it up, like, how a
40 year old guy would do it,

yeah, he's still playing that
kit like he's in his 20s.

Yeah? You mean physically, like,
physically, it

also the way the kits set up,
you know, that's like, it's just

not ergonomic. Yeah, in my
opinion,

I I've changed a lot of stuff,
too, when you talk about that,

like, getting older, the way I
set up, Broadway's made me do it

too, those four hour shifts,
everything's lowered, it's

closer, it's easier to reach,
little flick of the wrist. Yeah?

And, you know, one thing I
remember you always saying is

your your drums and cymbals get
bigger, the older you get, and

the less notes you play. And
that has stuck with me so much,

because just this is a great
example. This tour we just did.

I just finished 40 dates. It was
basically three metal bands and

Hawthorne Heights. And I say
metal different kinds, metal

core. I don't know the new
terms. I've never been a grind

core, scream, oh, but I'm
telling you, all of these other

drummers are ripping every
night. Every one of them's 10

years younger than me or more,
and they're just blazing feet.

And I thinking like, Well, I
gotta get up there and

play. But you could visibly see
great is coming on. I

know. And and I'm, Are you
friendly with the guys? Dude, I

became friends with everybody in
these bands, and I just took it

on myself to be like, I'm the
dad here. I am, like, the

veteran. I've been playing
professionally longer than all

of the guys here, and almost
more, almost as long as one of

them been alive. So I just try
to think about it that way,

because I'm like, these guys
could probably play circles

around me, but I'm just going to
show them. This is how you tour

as a veteran. So we get up there
and and Hawthorne Heights had

hits, which is cool. All the
other bands just didn't have the

I mean, Hawthorne had a couple
songs that were massive. So if

you were in the scene at all,
you just you definitely knew

them. So I tried to just go out
there and play the songs the

best I could. And talking to
those younger drummers, they're

like, Dude, I've just never seen
anybody play like that. They

were so encouraging. And I'm
just like, Dude, you're

unbelievable. Your feet and
you're playing the tracks and

click. And I couldn't do

that, seeing all the Instagram
drummers

they are, and that's and I'm not
putting out any of these guys,

these guys, all three of these
dudes, were great drummers, but

they were so complimentary on my
pocket and feel. And I was like,

I'm another drummer. It means
the world. Yeah, cheers.

It's funny because, like, as I
came up, could I ask how old you

were? I'm 4444

You look fantastic. Yeah,

you're okay. I'm 10 years older
than you.

You you're a rock star. I look

like I'm 15 years older than
both of you.

It's funny, because I came up on
listening to like Benante was a

huge influence for me. And you
see that guy play now, he still

plays with the same intensity.
But it's funny that you

mentioned that the symbols get
bigger and more close together.

He's kind of doing because he's
still playing the same intensity

in music. You

can't be rotatory cuffing way up
to the right. You know, David

Letterman, Steve Jordan symbol.
Well, all those

guys, all those like the Thrash
Metal guys, the Dave lombardos

and binantes and stuff like
that, all their symbols were

typically, because they were
playing so fast, they had, they

had to, you know, yeah, they had
to hit that symbol, and it had

to be within reach, yeah, and
like Dave Lombardo, the way he

plays now, I'm sure he's in his
60s, for crying out loud. I'm

sure

it was a great lesson for. Those
guys, because, you know, you

can't get around the experience
and the intentionality and the

time and the trenches and the
maturity that comes with that.

And I'm, you know, the same
thing. I'm this, you know, this

year on tour, I don't know who's
playing drums for Nate Smith,

but they're direct support, so
I'll sure I'll meet that young

buck, and then Ray Lynn is
opening for him. And you know,

that's Kaylee Moyer, young
drummer, the female drummer from

Belmont. So, you know, I'll be
the granddad on the tour. You

know what? I mean, it's like,
you know? So

this week I met, do you know?
I'm sure you do. Joel

stevenette, yeah. So I never met
him, Salt Lake City, yeah. We'd

met one time, I guess, at NAMM
through Garrison, you know, DW

guys, but he hit me up on
Facebook. And I was like, dude,

I'd be so honored if you came
like, that guy is just, he's

fantastic. He watches the whole
set. Was so encouraging. We end

up talking for an hour. He's
like, Yeah, I'd seen your

videos, but to watch you play
with that authority and so much

confidence in your pocket. He's
like, and you didn't overplay.

And I just was expecting you to
get up there and just shred or

whatever, yeah. And it was like,
it was the nicest compliment to

get from a guy, you know, in his
50s, that high, highly respect

plays

on a lot of video games, yeah,
dragons, yeah. And, you know, he

had, you know,

just talking about his resume
play for Jody Messina and a

handful of gigs that I was just
like, wow, you've done a lot of

cool stuff. And he was so
complimentary of that, because

it's so easy to feel, I mean,
it's so hard not to compare

yourself in our industry, and to
see young kids coming up and to

see the chops and the speed, and
I'm not putting down the

Instagram drummers, just to see
either the gospel chops or the

metal side, and neither of them
really compete with me. And I'm

just like, wow, that's fast, and
I'm just here playing boom

chick, boom chick. But, but to
have a veteran speak that into

my life encouraging like that
was just like, Man, I guess I'm

on track and I'm doing it, and
I'm so thankful, because I

always encourage my students, or
just, you know, guys new to

town, I'll go to lunch with
them. And there's a few guys

that I talk about, like you I'm
like, rich went to lunch with me

right when I got here. And
there's just guys who will do

that. And I'm always telling and
girls too. I never want to leave

out the women. But you know, if
I'm hanging with a guy and

they're just, they're they're
trying to battle this Nashville

thing, I'm like, Just be
yourself. Yeah, you can't walk

into every gig and think it's
you're the best fit, because

you're not. And you can't land
every gig, but you can be

yourself, and if you stay true
to that, and you learn the

music, and you show up, and
you're professional, like,

that's all you can do.
Somebody's gonna love what you

do, and you're gonna fit some
gig. You can't be, you know, you

can't be the guy that's gonna
play for everybody.

And you know what? You're not
meant to work with everyone, and

that, and that is a hard thing
to come into, because the same,

you know, hard when you're in
your 20s and 30s, it's like, I

want to take over. I'm going to
work with everyone. You know

what? I mean, you're just not
meant to. Because ultimately,

what happens is, you know, the
culture of Nashville is, they

call them, they call them the
camps, right? So, oh, you're in

the LD camp, you're in the
Hawthorne Heights camp, really.

And it's, it's a camp, because
it's like, this subculture, you

got all these Bucha circle,
yeah? It's like, it's a it's a

circus, it's a family, it's the
Family Circus. Yeah, it really

is,

you know? And there's always
somebody better and faster, and

there's always somebody that
shows up that's got more

experience, and then there's
always, like, a matt

Chamberlain, or somebody moving
to town, and you're just like,

what, what are you doing here?
Like, why are you coming to our

city? So there's always going to
be that stuff, but you still

just do what you do, work with
who you can be thankful and

appreciative. Do you're doing?
You know, keep hustling, because

covering a lot of bases here,
man, when I just played on five

new tracks for Tim Duggar.

Tim's amazing. I've only filled
in probably, I don't know, 10

shows with him, but he was
wonderful to work for so really

grounded kid. Yeah, he's got a
great head on his shoulders.

He's only

30, I don't know, yeah, like 32
years. Amazing.

Crazy. It's crazy, yeah.

So we're fellow DW ers, were
fellow promarkers were fellow

Humes and burgers were fellow l
peers. Oh

yeah, yeah, been. DW, I'm I
think I was 2000 like eight or

nine. Oh, wow. 2012 for me.
Okay, okay, I got you there?

Maybe

11 or 12. DW,

really got to the rock guys.
They did early on. I feel

like they have even a bigger
push in the Gospel market, but

they definitely have been real
rock guys. The guys that for me,

though, were Josh freeze and Abe
Jr, like growing up reading the

magazines for whatever reason I
was like, Ew and feisty are what

I want to play because of those
guys. The only

thing that dw really doesn't

have a lot of coverage in is is
modern jazz. Really? You got

Carl Allen. I

think Carl Allen plays DW drums.

Other than that, everybody in
the damn world is playing their

drums, and it's in every movie.
If there's a drum set in a movie

or a television commercial, it's
DW. It's like, pearl

in the 80s, yeah, you

still get people in Nashville
who will dog it sometimes and

they're just like, Oh, I hate
DW. I'm like, why? Well, why?

Because it's a drum

that practically tunes itself
and always sounds consistently

good and has sexy finishes and
has an amazing corporate

culture. And

so whenever somebody, when I see
on, especially on the national

drummer page, you know,
somebody's just going, we're

just talking about the last
episode, how they hate DW for

whatever reason, as soon as they
do, I look, I go, you. That

guy's never toured, or he's
never done a fly date.

And if you ever get DW as an
endorsement, if you have a

backline, if

you fly, and there's a backline
kit, your options are Pearl,

Yamaha dw, maybe tama, maybe
Gretch, probably not. And so,

you know, it's available all
over the world. The Big Three,

those are Yamaha Pearl dw, yes,
I

talked about, we talked about
this a couple of episodes ago,

how sonor is making a very
concerted push there, and

they're starting to show up at
all the different Broadway

establishments. They are

great drums. They're never gonna
have the world coverage because

they're too particular to German
and they don't put out enough

stuff. So dw is everywhere. I've
played them in probably 15

countries now, yeah, I can get a
DW tune to sound like me almost

every night, especially if it's
got my heads on it, which,

thankfully, at the level I'm at,
pretty much I can always get my

exact Evans heads that I play
which which ones are those

double play I use the EC two,
which is double ply with a

little ring around it, and
there's no Remo that exactly

sounds like it really. And I'm
so big on I've been playing

Evans my whole life, but I think
the Emad is the best kick head.

If you like Evans, usually like
the mad. Some people do. Some

people don't like a little it's,
it's got the big ring around the

outside. That's like the Remo
finally started making one last

year. That's a direct rip. And I
think it's because the, I think

the, not the copyright. What's
it called? Ran out the 20 years

of patent. Yeah, the patent. So
now Remo can make it and

not is that kind of like the
power stroke three in a way? No,

okay, it

is not, which I do not like.
Well,

we were, we were sitting around
the other night. It was a bunch

of pro markers, and everybody
played ProMark sticks, but I was

the only guy that didn't play
Evans heads. That is kind of

crazy. I was the only Remo only
Remo,

yeah, which Nashville is way
more remote than Evans, but

that's interesting in that
group. So I was Evans. I'm on 20

years with Evans. I think this
year amazing. And so that was my

very first real endorsement.
Actually, Vic Firth was and then

Evans that year, and I played
Vic for nine years, and the

adario bought ProMark. And so
there was this whole thing of,

like, Evans guys switching over
to pro mark. They played

something else. I was like, I'm
not doing it. I'm not doing it.

I love my Vic Firth and Marco,
who was at the time, Holy God,

rest his rest in peace. Marco,
he um, who just passed, he was a

and our guy at the time, he had
signed me at Vic Firth. Now he's

at DIA Dario, so I'm playing
Evans already. Steve Loeb Meyer

signed me there. He's been my
dude forever. Love him. And so

when I was playing with red,
who's like, kind of an active

rock they were Christian, but
they're an active rock, like

arena rock band in 2014 right
before step, they were pretty

big band, and they'd sold a
couple million records. And when

I was playing with them, Marco
just kept saying, we'll find you

stick, I'll send you stuff. And
he just kept sending me things

to try. Said, you show me
something I like as much as this

Vic. I'll do it. So I
eventually, that year, switched

over to pro marks, and I've been
with them, I guess, I don't

know, over 10 years, we play
like a 5b 2b, I, I came over

playing the Teddy Campbell
signature, which is an SD nine.

It was like a little bit it was
a 16 and a eight, so a little

bit longer. It was like a long
5b a little bit fatter. They

discontinued that last year. Oh,
wow. I talked to Teddy about us,

like, bro, you're sick. He goes.
I know all my friends keep

saying so now I play the 5b
long, but I do the rebound one.

That was the other thing. It was
like a rebound weight. I don't

know if you do the forward. I do
the four belt, okay, which is

very pro mark, like they were
all forward until they started

adding these rebounds, yeah. But
Vic, are all rebound weight. So

that's what I was used to. Yeah.
So all that to say I've been

with ProMark now a long time,
but they were so good to me, and

I just thought, I'm nobody, and
if they're carrying this much to

take care of me, and I don't
deserve this, like, why would I

not be loyal after you went

after your endorsements? Because
that's the number one question I

get all the time. People were
like, how do I know when to do

it? When do I do it? I was like,
You will know when to do it,

because here's the deal. This is
what the company wants. They

want you to be educating. They
want you to be recording. They

want you to be on television.
They want you touring. If you

can do maybe two out of those
four now high level, and have a

presence on in social media,
that that's when you know when

your band is going to be on
television, or your band is

going to be playing for larger
crowds. That's when you know to

go after the thing. Yeah, you
know,

I just okay. I need to back up
here. Yes, I've been playing for

35 plus years. I had never heard
this concept of forward balance

and like,

Okay, I'll explain it quickly.
I'm a nerd about gear. So when I

play stuff, I learn about it. I
study it. For example, with

Evans, when they put out a new
line of heads, I try it always

like, so that I can tell people,
You are Great endorser. I

actually am, like, for not being
on an A level gig. I'm one of

those guys that's like, I could
work at the drum store. I just

used to read the magazines. So
most sticks, well, take Vic

Firth. They're all rebound
weighted, meaning they're

weighted more towards the handle
and ProMark the differences.

They're weighted towards the
tip. Okay, so ProMark just a

couple years ago, maybe five
years ago now, said we're going

to make both. We're going to
call it forward or rebound, but

you can buy a stick in a 5b or a
2b, or whatever. You play the

main four or five stick kinds.
We're going to make it weight at

the front and the back. And then
the ones that sold well, they've

just kept and the other ones.
They've dropped. How

have I not known this? So

either the weight of the stick
is in the back of the stick,

yeah, or it's in the front of
this and it's entirely

preference. And everybody just
said that, yeah. Everybody just

loves what they love.

Thanks bridge for making them
feel like a freaking dumb ass.

Well,

I'm just saying the weight of
the stick is on the front of the

stick, yeah, or the back of the
stick.

So you're saying that the weight
is like, if it's forward, it's

in the front or the back, okay,
of the rear balance. So if you

want to rebound, it's more in
the back so you can get more

rebound. Is

it rebound, or is it rear
balance? It's called

rebound. Oh, okay, that's what
they call it. That was rear

balance, which would make sense.
I don't know what's in this

coffee. If you hold a 5b rebound
or forward next to each other,

you definitely feel a
difference. Yeah, yeah.

That's like, even today I went
to Guitar Center. I had to pick

up. I had to replace this on the
snare. The snug the drum set you

got me, it was missing a look,
screw. Yeah, right. Tension rod.

That's right and

really short for snare one, it
really is. So I had

to go get replacement tension
rods, and the guy asked me. He's

like, you don't want any sticks
or anything. I'm like, you know,

I should, really, should shop
sticks. He was upselling you,

but totally upselling. Would you
go to one at the Thompson?

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
That's much more bountifully

stocked, yeah. But, you know,
I'm like, at some point I really

need to, like, once things are
stabilized again, and I got

money in the bank, it'd just be
nice to go and be like, I like

that symbol. I want that. I want
that symbol. China, that symbol.

China, Wuhan, this symbol over
here. I like the sound of that.

You know, just to sit down and
for like, once in your life,

like, what you guys get to do,
would be cool to just sit down

and be like, No, I don't like
that drum, bringing out another

one. I'm gonna put this one
here. Yeah, sounds good. That's

me, you know, yeah, I need I'm
probably like,

do we do that? Do we like
sometimes? I mean, usually what

I do is, like, if I like a drum,

like, I'll see, I'll hear
somebody playing. You didn't,

you didn't go to dw and be like,
sit down and like, bring them

out. Let me hear what you got,

definitely so easy, like on the
theme song to the rich Redmond

show that was just a jazz a jazz
series, 1216, 24 Bing Bong.

Bong. 24 is not jazz. Yeah, the
series is jazz. It's called the

jazz series because it's

a maple gum shell, which is
based off the USA customs from

the age, you mean

rich. It's not wood that they
found on the freaking moon or

anything like that. No purpose.
I don't know

why they name it that, but the
reason it got famous was because

Dave Grohl plays them all the
time. But I don't know why they

call it the jazz series. It's so
bizarre. I just know the wood

combo. I know what the wood

you'll play every every other
format, every other style but

jazz, yeah.

So I'm a gear nerd, through and
through, and I love it. I could

talk drums with anybody, but the
biggest thing I always try to

tell people is I just everybody
hits different everybody's got

different touch. It's how you do
it. So, you know, I've got good

buddies for like, Oh, those are
the worst drum heads. That's the

worst snare, worst symbol. Why
do you play that? Like it's the

way I play. It's the way I hear
it. You do a different thing,

but that's totally fine. There's
no right or wrong. It's just a

it's a preference, because I'm a
rock guy, so yes, I'm used to a

kick drum with a pillow in it.
Some guys want it wide open.

Well, bottom played it wide
open. I'm like, well, Bonham was

playing John bottom brother. I
can't play anything like him.

You probably can't either, and I
can't play 20. And the

engineer is not going to be
pleased, yeah, you know, for

most situations, right? And, you
know, okay, so you are a rock

guy. So what is you're playing
the pasty Pisces.

You can't play in an arena, by
the way, with wide open kick

drum very easily.

You got to have something. I've
tried the pillow

in there, and still had times
where it's going. So, yeah,

anyways, go

on the policy. What's your
what's your series of choice on

the pasties.

So is it

okay? First and foremost, is it
feisty or

feisty? It rhymes with feisty.
Sorry, and I've heard that from

the namesake Kelly feisty
herself. So that is how it said.

I have a feisty upstairs. I'm on
year 17 or 18 in the feisty

family, so I consider myself
knowledgeable about them for

sure, like the Mercedes Benz of
symbols, I won't argue

with you there. It's, you know,
people be like, well, they're

not Silja, they're not Sabian.
And I'm like, well, they're

certainly more expensive.
They're the ones that sound on a

record. They just sit in a
different place. And if you

think about the bottoms and the
Steve Jordans and Van hills,

there's and procarro, there's
just a lot of those guys who

are, like, upper echelon, who
like that. That was their thing.

They did their whole career. So,
yeah, I play the big beats and

what they are newer line ish. I
mean, the last five or 10 years,

2002 has been around forever.
You know, you could go Alex Van

Halen, or you can even end of
bottoms career. Played the 2000

twos. They're cool sound.
They're very feisty. They said,

Let's make a darker version of
those. They're thinner. They're

like a thin 2002 they've got a
black label. 2002 they look the

same, but that's what I play.
And they're all bigger sizes.

They don't say crash or ride.
It's just big beat. So I've got

a 2221 and a 20 and 15 hats.
They do 1516, hats. There's

nothing smaller. The downside is
there's no. Uh, China's or

splashes, which I know you don't
need for most gigs, but I always

have a China and certain gigs
I'll use a splash. So I wish

they had those. But for me,
they're like, they work great,

and I love them because they're
rock, but I can hit them hard,

but also they just don't bend,
and they're light, they just

stay out of the mix, like, in a
good way, the hi hats never too

loud. That's probably what I
have

a bag of. I have a bag of Pisces
that I use. I always have around

for some producers that really
that their prefer the crashes. I

believe that just at the level
you're at, because I've seen,

like, a few of the guys in town
who are like, you know, like,

you playing on big stuff. And
I'm thinking, like, Who did I

see recently? Just went and
bought all Pisces.

I try not to Jerry. Jerry row,
he bought all Pisces. He

Wait, he came in, got a whole
set of big beats at forks.

Because, you know, he's like,
Mr. Mile guy, yeah, and the

guy's unbelievable. But he just
wanted that sound for another,

yeah, another option, just

having have, you know, have the
stuff in your bag of tricks. You

know, it's not something you
gotta be misabe. And so I'm

gonna go, you know, I'm gonna
start a symbol company, yeah,

and I'm gonna start it out of
Virginia, just so I can call my

line of China, the vagina.

Ouch, he'll be here all night,

because, VA, try this. Try, try
the veal. Okay,

Virginia's. VA, yeah, vagina. I

like that, buddy. I mean,

really big marker.

I mean, damn you like any kicks
his own jokes. So how, how does

Sonic blood fit into all this?
Okay,

so that's a big Christian rock
band. Man, it was in the day,

and they're still doing the
thing, right? Yes, but not so I,

I'm, I'm a pastor's kid. I grew
up playing in church world is

one of the first places I really
played with people and learned

how to play different kinds of
music. And so I've played

worship music my entire as long
as I've been drumming. So like

Michael W Smith and, yes, but
that's more like CCM, that's and

I'm a huge Michael W Smith fan.
If he called today and said,

Will you play like I would,
that's a childhood favorite of

mine. I saw him in an arena in
the 90s. Anyways. So when Sonic

flood came out, they were one of
the first rock bands in

Christian music to go. We're
gonna take these old songs that

you did that were kind of
churchy and lame, and we're

gonna make them cool. Yeah. And
so they were doing that when I

was in college. So about 10
years ago, I got a call to fill

in. They were already sort of
past their prime. But I was

like, Well, this is band I used
to love, so of course, I'm gonna

do it. I met the guys, sweetest
dudes ever, still making music.

And I was like, Well, of course,
I'll do this. It's like, we

might play five or 10 shows a
year. It's not a Oh, it's not

competing with barely anything
else I do. And I do it because I

love the dudes, and now I've
played on some of the recorded

stuff too. So yeah, it's like,
I'm in their catalog. I'm a

member now, whatever. But a lot
of guys in CCM in Asheville

played for that band. They've
gone through a lot of members.

It's not a it's not like a
regular act. So write a passage

band, it kind of is, and it's
just one that I look up to. If I

talk to kids now, they won't
know who that is, even if

they're in the Christian world,

but they don't know who Sonic
flood is, then they're

definitely not gonna know who
Petra is. Probably not. I saw

Petra when I was, like, 14 years
old. Man About pillar. Pillar,

I've never seen pillar live. I'm
great friends with Lester and

huge fan of his, but he's like,
red over there, yeah. And pillar

is, like, the same air as that
band red that I played in, and

actually, super chick, a band I
played for Lester's brother was

the longtime, like, main drummer
of super chick. I came after

him. I didn't realize Lester had
a brother, yeah, and he was a

pro drummer too. Now he's a
pastor. Wow. Um, anyways, so

yes, I've kind of come across
and toured with a lot of

different Christian bands over
the years when all those you

listed in my resume, like, yeah,
I might have done two or three

years and boom, it wasn't like a
long stint. So I keep the sonic

flood thing because it's like,
they're brothers now. And if

they called and said, Hey, do
you want to Will you go out and

play? I'm like, if I'm not doing
something, I will 100% be there.

But yeah, if I'm on another tour
doing 30 dates, I can't leave to

go do one, yeah, one Sonic now

they say it's rude to talk
religion and politics. But with

that being said, Are you still a
believer? Or have you, I

am actually, yeah, and I'm and
yeah, it's not the I'm never

gonna argue with anybody about
Christianity, but I'm hardcore

in my views, for sure, and my
goal is to be an encouragement,

be a light, to show people love.
I believe that's what Jesus was

about, right? I don't think he'd
be here arguing about politics.

I don't think he'd be here
arguing about a vaccine or

masks, or any of that so
companies out of Virginia, yeah,

yeah. So my thing is, like, if I
can represent Jesus without

being a weirdo, like, that's my
goal. My goal is, go out, play

music, have fun, do this, make a
living, but just encourage

people, they will know you by
your fruits, yeah. And we have a

chance to go out and, like, I
mean, just that we get to do

this, and we get to play music,
and I get to meet people all

over the world. I'm so fortunate
to do that. I'm not the greatest

drummer. I'm not even the best
drummer in the room. You know,

it's like, everywhere I go, I
go. I want to be the best I can.

But really, like this tour, I
just finished, my biggest goal

out there was to encourage all
those younger guys and other

bands, because I thought they
have great careers coming. Yeah,

and they're looking up to me,
and I'm thinking, you're way

better than me. Like You're
gonna do great stuff. So to me,

that's like a lot of what being
a Christian is, it's just

reaching people and being
encouraging, not trying to

preach at them, and not trying
to argue, not arguing.

Interesting question, though,
what is the like with the kids

that you're coming across? What
are some of the challenges that

are probably unfamiliar to you,
that you've never had to really

face, that you know they're
gonna face, and

you're talking about musicians
coming up specifically,

yeah, in the next generation.

I mean, we didn't come up with
phones or social media.

Obviously, that's one of the
craziest things. Even with my

kids at home, I can't imagine
coming up, comparing yourself to

people being able to watch them
when you're eight or 10 or 12,

that's really bizarre. I also
think it's we didn't have to

deal with the idea of being
virtuosos or playing in the

Olympics as a drummer, like when
we were kids, you knew there was

Vinnie, and you knew there was
Dave Weck on these guys. But

nobody's like, Oh, I'm gonna be
Vinnie. You're just like, that's

Vinnie. I'm gonna play music
like you didn't nowadays, yeah.

I mean, Vinnie could play
anything, yeah? But you didn't

think, Oh, I have to be Vinnie
to make it. You're thinking,

Kali Yuta, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm
gonna

go play a wedding band. I'm
gonna go, Yeah, I'm gonna go be

a working

drummer. Yeah, I'm gonna play a
church. I'm gonna play my rock

band, or I'm gonna go do this,
you know, I'm gonna play a

wedding band. I don't think it
was like today where kids are

like, Well, I gotta get online
and I gotta be able to play 300

BPM, and I got to rip all these
Eric Moore gospel chops, and I

got to do all this stuff, like,
we just didn't have that. So I

have to

film it, and then I have to,
yeah, I have to learn how to

engineer it better. Sound good,

yeah. And I got to get
endorsements when I'm 10. Like,

what that was pressure, okay,
but this phone thing as a

father, you know? Like, I'm not
a parent. I've, I, man, I

struggle with this so much. I've
mentored so many kids, but I've

never done the thing. So you're
doing that. So what are my most

parents doing now to to
encourage kids to be present?

Are they limiting screen time?
Yes. How does that work? I'm not

good

at this. So I was telling you
guys I got married just about

two years ago. I have four new
kids that were not previously

mine. Now they're my kids. So
how long do you know them?

Sorry, I've known them four or
five years now, but did not live

with them to get along

with the ex cut the father,
actually, I

do, yeah, yeah. He's a nice guy.
That's good, yeah, and I don't

want to

speak. So the oldest you you
were there during her formative

years for sure. No,

because we weren't living
together. We were not in a house

till we got married. A year now
I'm saying like, kind of knew

them, right, but now that I'm,
you know, trying to be dad to

four kids, the screen thing is
very tough, because especially

the little guys, it's hard to
explain to them or try to give

them time or and the only way to
punish a kid now is to take

their screen away. Nobody cares
about grounding or getting

spanked or doing lawn care like
as long as they're back to their

screen. So for me, that's been a
huge one to try to get on. I'm

not saying I'm doing it well,
because I don't think I am. When

I talk to other parents, they
say, Oh, you got to limit screen

time that their attitudes are
going to and that's one thing my

wife and I notice, when you take
the screens away for a week,

your kids are so much more
pleasant to be around because

they're they're not stuck in
that. And that's why this

matrix, this causes so much
anxiety and stress and

depression. Comparison. Yeah,
yeah. And because you're

constantly looking at what's
better, what's in life that I

don't have, we didn't have that.
We just were like, Let's go

outside and play I'm bored.
Let's go play sports.

Come back when the street

lights are on. Seriously
different world.

But it's it. As a parent who's
grown up, you know my kids

obviously know me, I'll give you
a little, hopefully, a little

bit of a word of encouragement.
The best thing you can do to

your detriment is get them
talking. Is get them to

communicate with you. Man, I
agree with that, because my wife

has been just world class at
that because, I mean, our kids

tell us stuff, or I'm like,
sitting there and they'll be

bringing up stuff that like, I
go, Really, yeah, you know, it's

just like, I'm your dad. I don't
need to know this kind of thing.

You know? I don't need it
seriously do, but at the same

time, too much information to
have that kind of reaction,

because communication is key, is
tantamount, and

if you close that door, they're
not going to tell you anymore.

My wife is great about that as
well. And I I'm trying to do

things like it's hard with four
I'm trying to do where I like

take one out to dinner or
something, to just try to get

one on one time with each of
them, because they won't talk

around the other ones a lot of
times. So that's definitely a

part of it. So yes, becoming a
parent in my 40s was not like

your idea of things that would
happen.

You jumped into the deep end
with it, yeah, yeah, you didn't

have time to ramp up. I didn't,
and

I'm more workaholic, so a lot of
the balance is my wife just

saying, Hey, do you need to take
that gig? And I'm like, we could

use the extra $300 she's, like,
more than your kids, right? She

does, but she was working six
nights a week, serving, and now

she works three lunch shifts,
which is a huge improvement, in

my opinion, because she's home
every night. And I'd love to get

it to where she doesn't have to
work outside the home. My wife

is anything but lazy, so I just
look at it like she's been a

single mom so long, working full
time. I'd love to say, hey, why

don't you just focus on the kids
and being home because you've

already worked more hours than
any woman should have to any.

Person. I'm not saying one word
woman in a negative way. Yeah,

Bitcoin.

He broke the wall. He Mr. Furlid
it.

That's right, Bitcoin, just put
your money in Bitcoin, yeah, I

mean, but you

get, you have to borrow by
portions of them, Satoshis,

yeah, what they're called,
that's like the nickels, dimes,

quarters of Bitcoin.

How much you need to get in on
the smallest fraction you just

buy? I think there's 100 million
Satoshis inside of a Bitcoin. So

one fact, as they say, as the
kids say, stack your SATs, is

that what the kids say, that's
the Bitcoiners.

That's what the Bitcoiners, what
do the crypto bros talk about?

Yeah, interesting, try. I've
been very big into crypto in the

last two to three years. Well,

it could make me sound hip. It
could be part of your, you know,

retirement strategy, yeah, you

know, God willing, yeah. I think
the dollar is going out the

door. But, you know, think so.
World reserve currencies only

last about 80 to 100 years on
average, and the dollar is about

there,

oh, my god, yeah, yeah. You
know, it's really comical. Pen

says that's, that's zero value.
None.

Is that the dollars got zero
value.

It's a Fiat hitting that point.
Yeah, yeah, wow.

Because it takes at least $5 to
do anything, yes, you know, like

a cup of coffee is like, Dude,
you better have five bucks. Look

at

it this way. In 2010 when I
first heard about Bitcoin, was

2012 2013 when I was selling
Mercedes, and I was like, What

is this crypto, Bitcoin? How do
I buy it? I have no idea. You

know, it took like, three or
three to five different hoops to

jump through to Buy a Bitcoin.
Back then it was, like, 100

bucks. Should have bought, yeah,
see so much,

100 of them. But you don't know.
How could you know? No, right?

So, I

mean, it was one of those things
that you kind of looked at it

and nobody knew what it was
going to mean. To me, it was

like the internet circa,
probably 1985 you know what? I

mean, everybody, you're probably
a very select few, a bunch of

people that knew what the
internet was, but the world did

not, you know right now,
cryptocurrency, I believe, is

probably the internet circa 1994
95 it hasn't had mass adoption

yet. Nope. Telling you, crypto
guys, I didn't need to start a

crypto podcast. No, Jim, you
don't need anything else. I need

more podcasts to produce.

I'm gonna throw one other
financial thing at you. This

changed my life this year. Yeah,
tell I'm not gonna get too into

it. I came across this last
year. It's a company in Franklin

called, I don't know if either
of you heard of this. It's

called replace your mortgage
University, and it's couple guys

who were bankers that figured
this out that if you have a 30

year mortgage, do either of you
have a 30 year mortgage? I have

an all in one, so that's what it
is, yeah. So is he all in one?

Yes. So you've already heard
about this,

yeah. So it's getting more
popular.

So it's your HELOC, yes. So
first position HELOC, it was

very difficult to do self
employed, to show the income to

refinance, but I just refinanced
after a year and a half in this

house to a HELOC, and now my 30
year mortgage is going down to

8.3 years, if I just stay on
track with what I'm doing. So

and I'm not gonna get into it,
since you already and it's

liquid all the time, that's what
I I'm trying to tell all my

friends, and they're like, Well,
I don't get it. And I said, I

get that. I did the whole
course. I had to study for 40

hours on this. But I'm telling
you, your money is liquid all

the time, so you can always take
it out,

but you have to have a mindset
shift, and you have to make sure

you're making more than you
spend. But that

wasn't a mindset shift. That was
just continuing to live the way

I was living. Way I was living,
right? That's, well, you're

probably

physically, physically
responsible, yes, which makes

sense in that case, because
every time you get paid, it's

being swept over into the
account, and it's driving down

that principle. And

so that's a whole weird thing to
get into that's not drama

related, no. But, I mean, Jim
has been telling me about it for

years, I would say I just and
this company doing it, they're

like, we're not the only company
doing this. You don't need us to

do this. We just train you how.
And I bought another thing. It

was $6,000 and I've already in a
in a couple months, have already

but

to your point, rich drummers
need new drummers coming up.

Need to know this stuff. So

one thing Jim Riley was so big
on was opening a Roth. Ira and I

never did. And finally, at age
40, I had gone through divorce,

bought my first house. Got out
of debt, and I started the Roth,

and I don't have a ton in there,
but yeah, I wish I would start

at 20, but 40 is not too late.
I'm still gonna have a little

bit when I'm 65 or whatever. So
I'm so huge on telling younger

players, squirrel some stuff
away, yeah, and figure out

different ways to do it, like
the Roth is one cool way to do

it. And another thing is, I
bought my first little house, I

built that studio. I never
thought I'd remarry, and when I

met Amber and the kids and
remarried, I was like, well, now

we got 25 people. We can't live
in this little house. So, so

that's your studio, yeah, so I
had to buy another house. I kept

the studio house, which was
almost a miracle. It felt like

God really provided that. But I
Airbnb the house on weekends,

and I use the studio Monday to
Thursday, and I lock it up. And

so renting it out two days every
week, pays the mortgage and pays

all the utilities on it. So
smart. So I own a second house.

That's probably eight minutes
for me. I manage it myself. I

manage it from the road. I use
the app I'm on there every day

changing stuff, and it's not
that much time, once you learn

how to do it. And then my wife
and I kind of split the

cleaning. She does all the
cleaning when I'm. On. So that's

super nice, but we've just made
it work. And so that's also

newer. In the last year and a
half of like, now I've got an

investment property on top of
the other stuff that's really

smart. Yeah. I mean, do you ever
go in there and it's like, it's

like a crime scene with, like,
bodily fluids and stuff? No. And

I'm

always like, it's gonna happen
one of these days, but you have

to have through Airbnb, you have
to raise your insurance on it.

And through the city, was so
hard to get the permit there,

like they hate Airbnbs because
they've messed with the economy

here. Yeah? And so you have to
jump through all these hoops.

And it was like you have to have
a million dollars insurance on

your property for that stuff
too. So we've had a few issues,

but nothing. Yeah. Well, the
thing that

a lot of people need to
understand, especially young

people coming up, is that
they're being sold the American

dream as home ownership. And as
I've gotten older, it's like,

Well, I understand that, but
until you have that mortgage

paid off, you don't own that
home. Because if you miss a

payment, they're going to remind
you real quick who owns it. And,

well, I'm going to pay it off.
And, you know, do the Dave

Ramsey thing. Well, guess what?
And you still have to pay taxes.

You still have to pay your
property taxes, and as long as

property taxes are in play, you
don't own shit. You do not own

anything you it was funny
because somebody the other day

was telling me that they sold
their house and they had to pay

capital gains taxes. And I'm
like, Are you freaking kidding

me? It's like they're getting
you for everything. The only

thing you really own is the
equity in the house, which the

all in one which what you're
talking about gives you access

to that's what you really only
own, you know. But as long as

there's property taxes, which
are the most dastardly of taxes,

and I will say publicly,

but then they went up 33% in
Davidson County,

right? That's the thing is that,
you know, if you don't pay them,

but you're going to own your
house.

Mount Julie, it is

Wilson. Robert Wilson, yeah.

So, I mean, that's, you know,
and working around that, and

getting the mindset of, like,
what Grant Cardone talks about,

like, Look, if you're going to
go into a property ownership,

then own multiple doors and rent
them out, yeah,

you know. But there is no

more safe, probably surefire,
way to create equity Understood.

Then, then homeowners
Absolutely,

but a lot of the way it's being
sold is that you own your

property. No, you don't,

no, You never, truly just don't
miss the payment. It's just,

just keep paying it.

But, you know, but that's the
thing, is that, like, again,

going back to my point, once you
pay off the freaking mortgage,

you still got to pay, pay, make
payments on it, and you're not

even control of the rate. It's
kind of, it's it's maddening. I

sure hope these, uh, rates come
down, because they might. I'm

going to refi like a mother.
Maybe do the all in one, get

access. You want me to do it,
but good, because you have a lot

of money, right? You'd save a
lot

of money. You pay it off
quicker, and you'd also have

access to your equity if you
ever need it. Real quick. I'm

going to save over $400,000 of
what I would have paid on

interest on this house in 30
years. That's the part that's

hard to grasp, how it's not like
fake or, Oh

yeah, because, I mean, it takes
for in the amortization process,

exactly what it is the first
decade they front

load the interest. It's

a wash. You're just paying, just
lose your pain,

right? But what's the what's the
catch? There's got to be

something in it for them. There

is, and here's my best way of
understanding it. You might have

a better explanation, right? The
bank is getting your whole lump

sum because you're trying to
keep money in there, and that's

what keeps knocking the rate
down. They have your money the

whole time, so for 10 years, or
whatever amount of time, you're

putting all your funds in there
all the time. And they can

obviously use that for whatever.
So they don't even sell your

your payment, because it's not a
mortgage, and they are

controlling more funds of your
money. It's just for a third of

the time. So they're making more
on it, and you're making more on

it. That's the best way I
understood

it. That's the trade off. But
the thing is, is that you have

access to your equity, immediate
access. That's

that's dangerous, because I got
mine for $370,000

and that's what the that was
for. So I it paid off my

mortgage right away. But now I'm
sitting with liquid 370 in that

account I could pull out if I
wanted to buy a car. That's very

scary, yeah, but they said, as
long as you keep living the way

you are, you're fine, you just
keep knocking it down, yeah,

yeah, so you can buy your car
and it's basically in the house,

yeah, yeah. You're paying
yourself in

a way. Anyways, this is veered
greatly from the drum stuff.

Now, you know,

but that's important. It is,
yeah, I mean, but

people with experience, fast
forward two months from now,

you're wearing all designer
clothes, and you're driving a

Porsche,

yeah? And if you do that, you're
gonna tank yourself just like

you would,

like Mercurio would be very
upset with you right now.

Oh, I'm just saying, I'm just
saying it that that's Porsche,

temptation, Porsche, Porsche,
Porsche, Porsche. Yeah,

gotta say it, right?

Well, man, you're, you know,
you're doing all the right

thing. I'm just, I'm just
terribly impressed with, you

know, all the gigs you're
juggling, and you say, Well, I'm

not on an a gig, but whatever
the gigs are, what if, whatever

they are, B plus is, it's, it's
all equals an A, because you

have a career in drumming and
you're providing for a family of

five,

well, family of six. Family six.
Super. Thankful because for all

of it, but looking back like I
know when I first met you, and

telling you, like you're one of
those guys that I have so much

respect for doing this, because
yes, you've played on big

records, unless, yes, you play
for big artists, but you've done

this for a career, for 30 years,
or whatever you've done, yeah,

to juggle this, and you've done
the speaking engagements, you've

done the clinics, and you've
I've just always looked we're

still alive. I've looked at you
hustling, like going. Lots of

people get to your level and be
like, I do one thing, and that's

it. And you don't. You're always
working, always. So you were one

of my for not being that much
older than me. I was always

like, this is the kind of guy I
want to do this, like, a career,

yeah. And some people love what
you do, and some probably hate

it. And who cares? You're doing
your thing. Oh, I'd love to

hear some of the conversations
when I leave the room. But, you

know, we're all, we all could be
treated, you know, we if we all

heard those conversations,
because it's just, you know,

it's not a good thing. Gossip is
not a good thing. It's very

detrimental as part of the, you
know, the human condition. Try

not to think about those things,
because people are talking about

us, you know?

Well, that's the thing. You've
made yourself a brand, and

that's what I love, and that's
what irritates people, because

they'll be jealous like, I wish
I would have done it rich did

2030, years ago. It's like,
well, you didn't, and he did. So

this is

where we're a a long line of
people that have come on the

show and have paid homage to
you. Oh, I believe, because

that's, and that's, and there's
a reason for that, you know,

because we've had very intimate
conversations and Jim and

friends for eight years. And
it's like, sometimes you, even

though you're you know what
you've done, there's still a

chance of getting down about
things, yeah, stuff like that.

I'm like, Dude, you know you've
set out. I remember you said you

put it on a glossy business card
or a recipe card or something,

that what I want to do is have a
positive impact on be a top call

drummer and have a positive
impact on the people I meet.

Dude, you've done it, man, we
just got

to keep doing and you're doing
it. That's

the thing. You've done it. And I
mean, I

was, I was trying to look back
to when we met, and I found a

picture of us at NAMM today,
from like 2012 maybe something,

right before I moved to
Nashville, back to Nashville,

and I remember you and I going
to probably that year. We went

to lunch at just downtown. And I
just remember you took the time

and I was we went to the Pizza
Pizza Pizza Kitchen. What's it

called over in green hills. I
don't know if it's still there.

Oh gosh, California Pizza, yes.
Oh my. I don't know why I

remember that, but I just
remember standing there talking

in the parking lot after and
looking back, it meant a lot to

me then, but looking at it now,
and knowing how busy I am and

where I'm at in my career, and
thinking like, you did that when

you were, like, already super
established, I just was thinking

like, how much that meant.

I remember coming to that my
house for the first time, like,

holy crap, he's actually coming
here. I never said it wasn't

like you were charging me, and
it wasn't like you were sitting

there checking your it was just
like you were being real. He

gives you, He

gives you 100% of himself. And
that's the thing is, is that you

did a clinic at Forex several
years ago, and you were just

utterly astounded at how many
people came out to see you,

yeah, and you were just, I'm
like, why don't you get this?

That was cool, you know? And
why? Why don't you understand

that these people see who you
are and how good of a person and

beautiful soul that you are. Oh,
thanks, Jim. Okay, am I close to

getting you to

tears so sweet? Well, you know,
I mean, I, I am easily terrible.

You are terrible.

Yes, yeah, it's serious. So
coming in a great drummer is one

thing, playing all the music's
one thing connecting with

people. That's the skill set. I
just that a lot of people don't

have love people. I went to a
pretty, relatively impromptu

drummer's luncheon the other
day, because you probably know

this kid, Jordan Arnold. He's
this young kid in town. He kind

of plays like Tommy Lee. He's
got like, he's got the big kick

drum and the three floor toms,
and plays in a real energetic

style, and licks his sticks. And
he stole some of my twirls, and

he's doing the thing. And he
connected with Greg Bissonette,

and Greg bissonettes Get him a
Dixon deal, like he's starting

to play, he's doing the thing.
And he said, Hey, we should do a

drummer's lunch. And like, you
know, the ones I do on the first

Wednesday of every month over at
that, that rat trap Chinese

buffet, I got, I got to tell the
guys, you got to change the

venue. But it's hard to find a
place where you could fit 30

drummers in, like a like a last
supper style bike. So anyways,

he gets five or six guys
together, and we go to Martin's

on Elliston, and we sit down and
we're breaking bread and we're

cutting up. And for I know, it
two and a half hours go by,

yeah, oh, my God, just I love
drummers. Yeah, I love drummers.

Bass players don't do that.
Guitar players don't do that.

Singers don't do that. Very

unique to our instrument that
like brotherhood. You

go to the Music City drum show.
And you see that culture a lot

of very helpful people. There's
very little ego. Yeah,

even that drummer's lunch. And I
always miss it. I try to go,

like, once a year, but that
Wednesday thing is the nicest

people, and it's, we have

to move the venue. I don't want
kung pao chicken served with a

side. Cockroach. It it's
definitely, it's

definitely rough. Let's move it
to Franklin. Yeah, Cool Springs.

I just think

that, you know, if people were
willing to drive to Spring Hill,

the Martins here in Spring Hill
has a gigantic dining hall, and

we could break bread and just be
loud. Let's do it, big, high

ceilings and so be

like, Hey, man, can I? Can I be
a part of it? I'm not really a

working drummer, but I'm trying,
dude,

you're a working everything.
Yeah, you guys both have a work

ethic, serious work ethic, as do
you. Congratulations on

everything, buddy. Thank you.
You did it. You came to

Nashville like you came here for
college. You know you've worked

around this physical ailment
that was very impressive to work

around that you know you're
playing through pain. You get

your degree, you go out west,
you, you know, become a founding

member of a, you know, it's an
iconic punk band now, man, you

know, it's like in the you've
changed things 20 years. That's

amazing. Then you come back
here, you're doing all this

stuff, great.

Well, I hugely appreciate it.
That means a lot. I i try to be

thankful every day and just keep
going and try to go. What do we

do to keep this? Yeah, like, how
do we keep this afloat another

20 years? I don't know. That's
teaching. That's

the recording playing locally,
saving your money, all the

stuff, all in one. HELOC,

seriously, check it out,

guys, check it out. I

promise you. Give it a half
hour, it'll change your life.

It's

a different way to think about
mortgages. You signed up for,

you paid good money to take the
class, to educate yourself,

to do that. Yeah, the quick the
other quick story on is my

buddy, who's doing marketing for
me, says his company in Franklin

small but check it out. He
explained it to me in like five

minutes ago. It's too good to be
true, doesn't that's impossible.

I said it's got to be a gimmick.
So I looked at the stuff online.

I called my dad. My dad's like,
Mr. Financial just got it

together. His house is paid off
retired. He didn't retire till

like 75 so he made sure he had
all these things in line. He's

super hard worker. He's been a
pastor my whole life, and just

now he just rides his Harley and
he's retired. So anyways, I call

the rev my dad, and I said,
check this out. Do you think

this is crazy? He goes, Yeah,
that's too good to be true.

That's can't be possible. I
said, yeah, just look at the

YouTube video. So he calls me
the next day. He goes, Well, I

ended up watching five hours
last night of videos about this.

And he goes, if my house was not
paid off, I would do this. You

need to look at this. I don't
know if this is going to be

around forever or if this is
going to change in our you know,

the way the laws work, but you
need to do this. So wow, I

bought the program, and the only
reason I bought is because I

didn't know anybody else who'd
done it, which is crazy, like I

hadn't even talked to a single
person who had. And they kept

saying, you don't need our
program. If you know how to do

this, we're just helping you
through it, and that's how we

make our money. So I bought the
program, did the whole course,

and and they said, we help you
get a refinance on your home. If

we don't, we'll give you your
money back. That's how you

pay off your house in eight
years, as opposed to 30. Yeah,

it just said they average about

a third of the time based on
what you're making, what you're

saving, and you have to have a
credit score over 700 so if you

don't have a credit score over
700 and you don't have 20%

equity in the house, you can't
do it. Gotcha. But I had 20 and

my credit score was like 839, it
was crazy high this year. For

some even

have credit scores that I 839
Yeah, I bet if I look right now,

it's at least 820 Whoa, yeah.
Whoa, that's perfect, dude.

Anywho so good credit score and
20% down, you can do it. But

refinancing self employed as a
musician, just like buying a

house, super hard. Siri, Siri
and Alexa

are gonna pick up on this
podcast episode, and you're

gonna get freaking inundated.
Freaking inundated with credit

card offers.

Yeah. Well, what's your favorite
color? Black, amazing. What

about your favorite food?

I I'm always a burger guy, but I
really have loved barbecue

moving to the south. I didn't
grow up with it. It wasn't a

thing. Well, that works

out great, because that's what
you're eating on a country music

tour. Yeah, hey, guess what? We
got the best barbecue you've

ever had in your life. It's
usually not, though I know we

had been we had Ben Jackson in
here, and, you know, he spent

like, a decade touring, and he's
like, the best barbecue you've

ever had in your life. Every day
someone claims it, you know. So,

the best barbecue in the country
where

I have a firm number one,

you know, my thing is, I just
always, no matter where I am, I

get the Texas Beef Brisket. I
like the brisket. So when in

Texas, you know, yep, that's
always the thing. But as far as,

like, a brand, you know, I was
just at Martin's pretty good.

Yeah, I like the brisket them,
and Ed Lee's in town. I like Ed

Lee's brisket a little better. I
like Martin's sides better.

Terry Black's, which is in
Austin originally, and also in

Dallas, that is my favorite, the
brisket. But they have these

beef ribs that are like this
big, that are like brisket on a

rib. I don't know it's like
crack,

though. So you told me one time
you're kind of a foodie, kind

of,

I'm not like, I don't spend a
lot, but if we're like, this

week with Hawthorne, we played
in Vegas at the strat, sad that

we had dinner at the top of the,
like, Space Needle looking

thing. I had $100 steak that I
didn't pay for. Like, I get to

do that as we do, but if I were
on a date, would I do that? No,

because I'm too cheap.

We ate a $60 steak this week.
Yeah. What does $100 steaks

taste like?

Yeah, to me, I'll tell you, I
was shocked, because I don't

think, I don't consider myself
to have. Like, a professional

palette of expensive food. And I
was like, Is this going to be

better than, like, you know,
going to Outback? Probably not,

because that's like, I'm more
like, like, for my birthday.

Last night, my wife and I went
to Longhorn, and it was

fantastic. Your

birthday yesterday. Yeah, you
just turned 44 Yeah, yesterday.

Happy birthday. So that's

a great meal for me. This was,
like, Australian beef or

something, you know, it was like
something, and they had, they

had wagyu, and they had, like,
three or four different kinds,

and I was just, like, $92 for a
steak. That seems steep, and I

had it, and the guys were all
looking at me because they all

have more expensive taste, and
they have all been in this,

members of this band for a long
time, and just financially, in a

different place than I am,
different tax bracket, yeah, and

I'm the hired gun guy, so I try
to, I go, guys, that's literally

the best steak I've ever had. So

for 92 bucks, it better It
better be, yeah, all I can say,

it was great.

Now, what about a

drink? I forget if you do the
cocktail thing, every once in a

while, I have never had a drink
in my life. I think I remember

hearing that I am addicted
highly to Diet Coke, and I'm

very opinionated about diet
coke, but I don't drink alcohol

or coffee, which is really
aspartame. Yeah,

my business partner, he'll drink
Diet Coke, no coffee, no

nothing,

yeah. So I'm very big on the
fountain being my favorite. And

I fight with people about this a
lot because, like, a gas station

is terrible. And I'm like, I
agree you can't beat McDonald's

diet coke out of the fountain,
or Coke, for

that matter, it's, it's perfect
because of the carbonation,

yes, and there's a shipped cold,
it's the only one that comes in

cold canisters that's
refrigerated, and they have

their own. It's just slightly
different than everywhere

else now. But you do know that
aspartame is, like, terrible,

terrible. I agree,

yeah, and it may be my downfall,
but everybody's got something

in. Like, if that's what kills
me, I love

it. So was that, like, like,
your the rev coming into your

influence in your life, where he
was like, Don't ever take a sip

of No. And my

parents didn't drink when I was
a kid. Like, they'll drink wine.

Now, I definitely grew up in
that 90s Christian Era of like,

alcohol is the devil kind of
thing. But now it's really not.

I just chose not to. Till 21 I
was like, and then I started

touring that band. I'm like, I'm
like, I'm not going to do drugs

and I'm not going to drink or
smoke, because I want to be

different for kids. Like, that's
part of my example as a

Christian, but also as, like, a
professional, this is how I'm

going to be, yeah. And what's
funny 20 years later, like,

that's one of the biggest
reasons Hawthorne Heights,

besides us being friends,
they're like, we're kind of a

sober band, and so we're a
little boring on the road. We

just don't want somebody that's
a wild card. They all got sober,

yeah? And they were just never a
big drinking band, like they'll

have a cocktail or whatever,
like you're talking about, but,

I mean, there's not hard liquor
on the bus. And we're touring

with bands who are like, you
know, some are doing cocaine

every night, and it's just still
living it like it's the rock

stars you can't do that. And
with, yeah, and we're the dudes

who are like, well, you're like,
Rush touring, because that's

kind of what it felt like so but
we just, guys would be

in their hotel rooms, like,
reading books, yeah, kisses,

having, like, orgies, and we're
just,

and that was another thing. Like
married family guys, like, we

just, this is how we operate.
We're a business. If you put the

business first, it's always
gonna have a better chance to

succeed than if you're doing
stuff. So that's kind of the

thing. It's not like I'm against
drinking. And if we were at

dinner and my wife had a drink,
like, Great, I'm on board. I

always kind of want to try, but
then I go, I've come this far. I

might as well just like, write
out my things. Why, in my 40s,

start drinking, right?
Especially because I'm very

addictive with drinks
specifically, yeah, like, if I

had a Diet Coke here that was
this big, it'd be done, like,

I'd already have it down. Okay,

well, I wish we I think we got
some in there. We gotta send you

on your way with some aspartame,
right? So, so Jim has got a new

series called The

Deep five. The depressing five
was that we're going, what's

they could be depressing, but
let's not do that.

Okay, so what is wrong? What
sounds right

in the world, anywhere,
anything. What's

wrong? That sounds right? Well,
very deep question. You could

pass on things too. You're like,
No, I'm

trying to think. Like, I don't
even understand what we're I

don't like that one. Jim,

we'll pass hard pass. What
animal could be cutest if scaled

down to the size of a cat?

Oh, these are just like, random,
so stupid.

I mean, like a lion or a leopard
or cheetah or something.

Hey, we'll do one more thought.

There has to be five, if they're
good questions. Yeah,

I'm trying to find one.

What's wrong when you are old,
what do you think children will

ask you to tell stories about
nice,

either what it was like before
cell phones or

what it was like before
computers. Yeah,

I've got mail, yeah, remember
that the dial up sound for AOL,

we didn't

even have, like, a family
computer in our house? Yeah? Um,

maybe what it was like when we
were driving our own cars. Who

knows? Oh, yeah,

what do you think? Do aliens
exist?

I don't believe aliens exist,
no. But as a spiritual person, I

definitely believe in angels and
demons. That's a whole nother

conversation. I would say
probably, when people see

aliens, it probably is a
physical thing. Man, if.

Testing. It's something
spiritual. That's probably a

demon that they're thinking is
an alien, my best,

yeah, like Constantine. They're
going to make a follow up to

Constantine, really. Yeah. Have

you seen the movie? Signs, Oh,
yeah. Phoenix with the Mel

Gibson

swing away, Maris, I forgot why
Phoenix was in it. I just think

of Mel Gibson, yeah, in

the scene where, you know,
because Mel Gibson plays a

character who walked away from
the cloth because his wife got

killed. And, man,

I haven't seen that in like, 23

it's a really deep movie, yeah,
and, you know, it's almost like,

to your point, the aliens that
you see are almost demonic, and

at one point, his kid, he's
trying to console his kids

because he's having an asthma
attack and he doesn't have his

medicine, yeah, and at one point
you see him, he just gets in his

motors. He starts going, I hate
you. Remember that part where

he's in the dark basement and
stuff like that? Who do you

think he's talking to?

That's really interesting,
right? But who was

he? Because I think at that
point, you know, a lot of the

things that were coming to
fruition were prophecies that

were given to his wife, and he's
starting to make the he's

putting two and two together. I
honestly think he's talking to

Satan.

You know, I hate you. Why are

you putting like you could be
construed as him talking to God?

Because he walked away from,
right, the spirituality. And

then he really puts it together.
When the alien tries to point

gas poison, the kid, yes, and
his lungs were closed. And he

says, you know, his lungs were
closed so the poison didn't get

in. He's chanting it over and
over and over, and all of a

sudden, this kid, it's like a
freaking weepy moment. I

just got, I need to watch. I
just got goose bumps because M

Night can write a script, and
they're not all made. Sometimes

he knocks them out of the
ballpark. And, you know, I mean,

like, I like Lady in the Water.
I like signs. I like what was

the sixth sense? The town was

that one? No, the

village, the village, the
village.

Yeah, it was pretty heavy, too.
Kurt,

we went to go see that. Me. Kurt
and tell he went to go see that.

And Kurt was like, I saw that
coming a mile away. You know

what I mean, that they were
isolated, the ending, the twist.

Yeah, you know, I could write a
country song, probably with

the twist he got. He was

good at the twist, but no, but
signs, fantastic. I've, we've

watched

that enough, where I've analyzed
it and done some research

online, where it's just like,
you know, I don't think he's

talking to

God. I'll have to go back. I
just don't even remember it that

well, what to do a reprisal. I
just remember the scary seat of

the alien walking by, right onto
the childhood of everything.

Yeah,

dude. Well, you know, Do aliens
exist? Check this out. If you

have ever seen an octopus?
You're like, this cannot be

real, yeah. This is the most
unique creature I have ever

seen.

I love it. You know, there was
actually in the try that podcast

which I produce, yes, Jim Neil
Thrasher kind of went on a

little bit of a rant. And he
went on this very impassioned

take on being out in a

tree stand waiting for to kill
something, yeah. And he says, he

says, if

you just come out and witness,
you know, going from 3am to six,

7am in the morning, and you're
sitting there and everything's

coming alive, although
everything's waking up, yeah.

And he says, When you see that,
he goes, how could you not

believe? How could you not
believe that there's a supreme

intelligence that programmed all
this? Yes. And it's like, you

know, it's as simple as that. To
me, it

was just, it's this, you know,
getting up early. I'm trying to

do it way more in my later
years, because the morning time

is magical, like our bodies are
supposed to be aligned with

sunrise and sunset, and we're
supposed to be more locked into

the Earth's rhythms and stuff.
It's the most peaceful time. You

get up and you stretch and you
hydrate, and you get some

vitamin D right away, and then
you pour your coffee, and then

the birds are chirping, and it's
just like you feel like anything

is possible, as opposed to,
like, sleeping into, like, 1030

and you're like, Oh, my God, I'm
behind, and I got a million

things to do, and then the day
gets away from you. You know,

I just suck because I'm on the
different time, like I'm more

get up at 10, yeah, but three or
four nights a week, I might be

working till but you got to get
your three in the morning. Got

it

again, they're saying that seven
hours is the new magical number,

right? It's divine too. Yeah?
Seven is like seven at least

seven. I mean, if you can get
eight nice,

I can't do well on less than
that. I wish. I need to get

better about the morning things,
especially as a parent. People

like, how do you sleep? I'm
like, I'm not sleeping in. I'm

working downtown till 3am a
couple nights a week, and then

that messes up my schedule for
the week. Then you get to bed at

four, yeah? It's like, if you're
getting to bed at four, you're

not going to wake up before 10
or

11. You just because you're only
getting six hours sleep if you

wake up, and that's if you get
the sack as soon as you get

home. Yeah. But after I played a
gig, I'm on a high. Like, the

earliest I can get to bed on the
road would be 1am at the

earliest, because we get off
stage at 11. I'm drenched in

sweat. Yeah, I got to take a
shower. I want to hug my

bandmates. Might have a light
snack. And then I realized, ramp

down I got, I got a that's the
battle to the food after

well, hopefully it's like, it's
like the Chick fil A nuggets.

And you're like, This is not
bad, just, it's just the

breading, you know? So you do
that, and you try not to have

the bread, and

they bring all the pizza, and
you're like, I'd rather not. But

then if there, if there's burger
and fries, I'm just like, well,

I guess, you know, we do with

the pizza for us. Pizza night is
Saturday night when we're going

home on a run. Okay? It's always
the last night of a run. So if

we have a lot, if we have a gig
on a Sunday night, we're getting

pizza. Yeah, nice, yeah. What a
great chat. Do you got? Do you

have a.com

I don't. And I did forever. I
mean, like 2000 to, like 2015 I

did. And then I just was, like,
nobody's really using a website.

I should probably do it again,

but, but it was the best way for
people to get in touch. Super

easy on Instagram,

which is just that dango empire.
Same with my Facebook. I kind of

dabble in tick tock, meaning,
like I set up a page, but I

don't really use it. But like
all, if you find dango empire, I

will get back. I

love the Empire thing. When?
When did that come it's really

stupid light bulb moment.

It was like I was with the
Christian artist named Chris

rice back in the day, one of my
first gigs, and I was just, you

know, dango, and he's and I
started doing dango T shirts

kind of as a joke that had kind
of my logo on him. And so he

would carry my bag of shirts
around. He's like, we'll just

call this the Empire. And he's
like, you're dango empire. And I

don't know why it stuck, but I
was trying to come up with a

website name for the.com and
dango was taken, and it's a

Japanese dumpling, so you
couldn't get anything close to

dango. And I was going to do fan
of dango. So it was like,

Fandango. We're like, well, it
could be a lawsuit, if it does

anything. So it just was dango
empire. Was the only thing that

didn't. Oh, and we had dango
online, but it looked like

dangoon line.

Yeah, so interesting. Yeah. So I
think it's a good idea. Yeah, I

just went with

dango empire. It's not my name.
It's not part of my name. I

don't want to be called dango
empire, just to clarify any of

that, but my name's dango
Kellen, and I don't because

dango is unique enough. I just
say dango.

You're the only dango. I know
it's usually because that, like,

are you thinking it's like an
Irish name or, like a no,

that's actually a name I got in
college as a nickname. Oh, since

you're asking, I'll give the
quick story there. Yes, two of

us in a punk band when I was a
freshman had the same name. He

started calling me dango. It was
just like an something we came

up with as a joke by the second
year at Belmont. I mean,

professors, everybody would call
me that. So before I graduated,

it was just dango, nothing else.
You know, my senior recital had

my posters were dango at
Belmont. Then I moved to

Seattle, joined this punk band.
I get my first drum stick deal.

I'm putting dango on my sticks.
I had it on the front of my

drums. I was selling the T
shirts. And so by that point,

it's like, well, I'm not going
to go buy anything else. That's

what I'm credited as on every
record I've ever played on. So I

eventually just legally added
because like, well, this is

stupid. If I ever get married
and they call me, I don't tell

anybody. No, it's biblical. But
why are you prodding? Huh?

It's a fair question. Well,

he told me to go down rabbit
hole, right? So I never went to

podcasting school, yeah? So

I've just stuck with dango. It's
easy to remember. It's like, oh

yeah, the ball drummer, dango.
And now there's a lot of balls.

Biblical name, Abraham,

Jacob. It's Old Testament.
You'll hit it if you keep Moses

only

like 5000 names to get there.

Wow, just a few. All right.
Well, Dan goes, Hey, just like

show you the power of nicknames.
They spread like wildfire. Well,

and

if you don't make it yourself,
if it happens and you can't

change it like teachers, nobody
knew me as anything else, so

mine in the renowned band
Connecticut white bread, I was

known as Gilly. How about that?
You didn't know that? Did you

what? No, I

I told Jimmy, can't mention
Connecticut white bread in every

episode. Yes, he has to do every
other episode. And I did. Yeah,

this was a great chat. So people
should look you up at at dango

empire. Sure. That would be
wonderful on the socials, for

lessons, for sessions. Go see
him. Play around Broadway. Go

see him on tour. Hawthorne
Heights, Amber Pacific. Scott

staff, doing it all, man. Thanks
for coming. Thank you

so much. An honor, seriously, to
be here. And I'm so glad you

could make honor to have you. If
I can help anybody else in their

journey, that's part of my goal.
So your younger guys new to

town, I'm like, I'll always make
time. If they hit me up, you're

doing

manifold. That's right. Thanks,
Jim

and to all the listeners, thank
you for watching and listening.

Be sure to do me a favor. Great
show. Give us five star rating.

Leave us a nice comment. Spread
the word. We'd love it. We'll

see you next time. Thanks,
Tango, Thanks, Jim.

This has been the rich Redmond
show. Subscribe, rate and follow

along at rich redmond.com
forward, slash podcasts. You.