The Rich Redmond Show

Unknown: All the rock drummers
that I kind of model myself

after the Bucha rose, the
aronoffs, they all bury it. I

know,

I know, for me, it's, I'm such a
big bottom fan. Yeah, and that

tonality, man,

he made it boom. He did. Did he
come off? He came off?

You have to, because it's a 26
inch bass drum with no monthly

right? That's right, was it
always 26 or

did he go bigger than that? No,
I think he was pretty much

always 26 Yeah. Always 26 Yeah,
he would play 26 It is, yeah. He

would vary Tom sizes. Sometimes,

yes, they played tubs, big, old,
generally

big, but tuned higher than
people realize.

Why wouldn't you do that?
Though? I mean, just high buddy,

like a jazzer, yeah, jazzer.
Why? Why wouldn't you play a 26

inch kick. Is it? You know, you

have to be respectful of the
genre, like we're pushing it

with our 20 fours. That's true.
You know what? I mean? Well,

for, I mean, for country. I
mean, is it country that could

be mixed down, 24

is perfect for modern country. I
agree 100% Yeah. 22 is good if

you want to be a little bit more
polite pop. 20 is a great

overall bass drum show, if
you're playing like weddings and

casuals, and then you're talking
about volume, even the sonic

quality, like a 20, you can
cover the entire history of

music, pretty much.

This is the rich Redmond show.
What's

up? Folks? Give your watch, your
iPhone, your clock, if you got

one of those on the wall, old
school is correct. It's time for

another always exciting episode
of the rich friend Show coming

to you from beautiful Spring
Hill, Tennessee. We talk about

things like music, motivation,
success. Lots of drummers walk

through this door because
drummers, we are the cake. We

are the foundation. Everything
else is the frosting. It all

falls apart without us. I love
talking to drummers, and I got

another one right here. He's my
longtime friend. 19 years. He's

come up on his 50th birthday
this year. We got to do

something really big. Jim
McCarthy. Jim McCarthy,

voiceovers.com, thank you. I
have no idea what you're talking

about. Dude, it's gonna be a big
one. Buddy, one level. 49 what's

the day? What's the I should
have been memorized after 18

years? August, 20. Okay, it's
gonna be great. And so what do

you want to do? Do you want to
do a big public thing, like at

the red door, or Fauci or one of
the or do you want to just do,

like, a private thing, you know,

as I I'm good with my backyard
or the fire. Let's do

that. Very chill. Let's do that.
No one has to drive, right? I

like that. No one. Hey, did you
watch the Grammys? I did. I'm

sure we're going to talk to with
our guest today about the

Grammys. But I think that, you
know, there's a new era of the

Grammys. I was a really
enjoyable show. Harvey Mason is

a an amazing drummer. He played
all these Herbie Hancock

recordings, classic la drummer.
His son, Harvey Mason Jr, is

like the president of the Grammy
Association. I think he's been

doing a great job updating it.
And I like watching the show

because I get to keep up with
all the new styles and genres

and sub genres. So what stood
out to you? Well, I don't want

to become to get off my long
guy, right? So everyone's

talking about this chapel, Rome
chapel. Ron. Oh my god, the kids

are loving this girl. She had
the biggest day at Lollapalooza,

the biggest crowd ever. And I'm
like, Okay, let me check this

out. So I'm like, All right, I
get it. I watched the

performance, then I went and I
did the deep dive on Spotify.

And all's I got to say is I have
listened to her song pink pony

club about 50 times. I did a
hour and a half workout

yesterday, and I played it over
and over, and it is an ear wig.

It's a master class in writing
architecturally perfect pop

music,

right? It's a lot of color to
it. It's so, oh my.

And I'm just, despite the name,
I'm just dancing. And then the

subjects are really, because I
lived in West Hollywood for two

years, and I know what's
happening there. And it's, it's,

it's fun, it's a fun town. Fun
was a way to put it. So anyways,

I really enjoyed that. And hey,
I just want to do just a little

bit of housekeeping here, just
in this spirit of Mark Marin,

just letting people know we're
February 24 I'm going to be at

the Coliseum Nashville, the
Coliseum national.com I'm going

to be doing a two hour master
class. Come check us out. March

15, they're gonna be doing a
clinic at the West Coast drum

Center in Seattle. Check out my
socials for all the stuff. March

16, I'm gonna be at the wood
stick drum festival with Greg

Bissonnette, also in Seattle.
Come check that out on july 21

the day after the Music City
drum show. Now the Music City

drum show, you're gonna be
there. You're I'm gonna be there

the 19th and the 20th, right?
And we're gonna have a booth.

We're gonna step and repeat.
We're gonna be selling things.

We might even be recording
episodes podcast. That's what I

say, is that we're gonna have,
we're gonna have merch. Merch is

coming. We're finally, after six
years of this show, over 200

episodes. We're gonna have
hoodies, hats, coffee mugs, all

the stuff, 19th and 20th. We're
at the convention center doing

the thing. We're gonna have a
booth, and the day after, I'm

gonna be at the drum supply
house, I'm gonna be doing a big

clinic. So that's where I'm
gonna be at. Let's get into it,

because we got an amazing guest.
You know, we are kindred

spirits. We are members of the
mutual admiration society. I

think this guy is so
accomplished, hailing from New

Orleans, calling Nashville home
for 15 years, he was a long time

band of member of the award
winning Rock Band Better Than

Ezra. 13 years he's playing with
this little group called Sugar

Land for 18 years. Currently,
he's playing with Frankie

Ballard, but he also does tons
of recording sessions. From

Music Row, from his home studio.
Look at these people, these work

with. We're talking big and rich
Billy Pilgrim cowboy, Troy,

Frankie Ballard, Gavin de Grau,
having a hazard. Christian

Bucha. It goes on and on. Then
he's recorded with guys like

James Blunt, Marshall, Crenshaw,
the Indigo Girls, Lady Gaga.

Sean Mullins, there's Daniel
Daniel powder, Suzanne Vega, the

B 50 twos. Butch Walker,
Beyonce. This is a big boy

resume. I'm talking about my
friend Travis McNabb. What's

happening, fellas? So we are so
happy that you made the trip

over to Spring Hill, our new
home. Yeah, you're a

franklinite, right? I am, yeah,
so I'm not too far. You got the

studio on the hill? Yes. Indeed.
If anybody's followed your

Instagram, they know how COVID
There's got to be a lot of

jealous drummers. That's a
beautiful space.

It's a beautiful space. I feel
I'm so fortunate, and you

deserve it. Well, when my wife
and I moved here from New

Orleans, we, we, it's just two
of us. We don't have kids, and

so we had a smaller home in New
Orleans, and we were looking for

that here, because always there.
Always had the studio of my old

band Better Than Ezra down the
street. And so initially we were

trying, we liked the Franklin
area, but we were only finding

bigger houses. And our
intention, or because of what we

were used to, thought we'd have
a home and then would have a

studio separate, yeah. And so
ultimately, it started making

sense. Okay, these are all
bigger houses. It's my studio is

going to wind up being in. Up
being in the same building,

which is great. And now I track
a lot my pajamas and all that

sort of typical thing of those
of us that have home studios,

but we're really fortunate. We
found this place in the woods on

a hill, so it's a walkout
basement, so I have, I'm not

like in a dungeon, you know. And
it's just a beautiful space.

It's, it's, it's peaceful to be
at, but even just the drive home

through the horse farms and all
that stuff just to get there,

yeah, is this meditative moment
that, you know, it brings you

into that peaceful space just
going home, or which is also a

workspace for me, but it's, but
it's a, it's a great one.

Yeah, the Instagram is, Trav
NAB, that's right. So, Trav now,

so check it out, folks, you're
gonna see ton of nice piano,

Persian rugs, tons of vintage
kits, snare drums, you know,

curated percussion, everything's
all miked up, ready to go.

There's a view. You got your
workstation there? Boom, it's

nice, man. Yeah, I'm spoiled. So
mine is gonna be the typical um

man cave above the garage, okay,
20 by 2112

foot ceilings. See, that's that
I'm jealous of. I wish I had

higher ceilings, but you get
around to the plug ins and all,

yeah, totally. And I do have
enough square footage to where I

can get good room sounds, even
though don't have the ceiling

height I wish I had, yeah, I
just have to be a little more

careful about actually being
dynamic regarding the symbols,

you know, that's the biggest
thing. If I'm bashing those,

like it's a live show, they're
just gonna then the room mics,

you know, with the compression
you want to use on room mics and

stuff, it becomes, uh, not
pleasant. So that, that's

something I've learned and
figured in the space, yeah, you

know. But other than that, it's
absolutely love it, yeah.

And so now, does, does your
your, does your wife work from

home? Because you got to work
around that, right? More or

less she does. She's a woman of
many talents, and has had many

careers, but currently, her main
thing is she's, she's in real

estate, nice, and so she's out
doing that, but also her home is

the office, so she really,
she's, so, I think, used to it

or okay with it, you know. So
anytime I need to, whether it's

recording or working up new
material for a gig I'm gonna do,

or whatever, I'll ask her, or
kind of see what she's up to.

And she's always like, why

are you just go do it? Yeah, but
it's amazing. She's a keeper.

Oh, yeah, hundreds,

25 years, man. It's amazing for

a rock star like for you to be
available to be committed. 25

let's do the math. 25

How long ago was it? That was a
year 2000 it was

the end of 99 and it was at in
Las Vegas at 2am after a show at

House of Blues at Mandalay Bay.
How long have you got been

dating at that point? About
three and a half years. That's,

that's what's good?

Yeah, yeah, it's almost twice
the

standard is that right? Two
years should get off the pocket.

Okay, 9125

days. You guys, you've been
saying, Yes, dear,

wow, that's awesome. Yeah. I
mean she literally, okay. So

where my drums are in the space
of our my basement studio, our

sofa is directly above them, so
she will nap right above me

while I'm playing. She's, it's
amazing. It's amazing. Yeah,

wow. Well, that is, that is
great, and we'll talk about

that, because that's a big thing
in the modern world, is having

your own space. So I'm in no
rush, because, you know, the

majority of times I find myself
in a commercial studios. You are

many, many, many times, but it's
still only about 5% of my

income. You know what I mean?
Because, you know, I do so many

educational events, or I'm on
Southwest Airlines and do that,

you know, but I can't wait to do
it. But I'm gonna do it, right?

I'm gonna build a room within a
room. Oh. So I just gotta, you

know, do that thing, float the
floor and do it right? Because

this is my last studio. I mean,
I'm getting my AARP literature,

you know. I mean, my hair is the
same color as yours,

so you and I think are right at
the same Yeah, I love that you

were eight months apart. Oh, is
that right? So I'll be 55 in

July. Oh, okay, so I'm ahead of
you. So we're just, we're eight

months apart. So you were born
in the 70s. I was just barely

born in the 60s. Well, man
walked

on the moon, and then you were
born, that's right, right,

exactly, right. And then for me,
one year later, you know the big

the big collars, the big hair,
that's right. You know, John

Travolta, Amanda, the 70s were
special. I agree. I agree, yeah.

But you only remember what from
1974 75 on? I mean, yeah, it's a

pretty good part of the decade.
But you remember the 80s more,

right?

Yeah, but, but, I think the
thing that a lot of people don't

think about with the 70s is
because you do, you tend to

think of disco and the fashion,
the ridiculous fashion, that

kind of that's awesome, but
ridiculous. But, I mean, think

about early 70s Led Zeppelin,
yeah, you know what I mean,

like, there was some great new
Wave

of British Heavy metals. Yes, I
still

feel like some of the best music
was from

69 to 82 that's a golden era of
the release, because you get

Laurel Canyon, you get rock and
roll, you get the one hit

wonders, and then you get ya,

I'm a huge yacht rock, yeah? So
you guys love all this, yeah,

what's that? Did you watch that
documentary? No, I haven't seen

it yet.

Well, I just got rid of HBO Max.
I'm saving $16 a month. Yes. And

then there's a new there's a new
show with that Noah guy from er,

he's in another medical drama.
Remember he was Clooney sidekick

Noah Wiley, yeah. So he's the
lead in this new thing. It's

called the, the unit, or the, I
forget what it's called, but

anyways, it's like a visceral
you are in the ER, and the whole

episode is one hour in real
time. Oh, kind

of like that. Remember the show
24 Yes, wouldn't they wouldn't

that? That was 24 episodes.
Yeah, yeah, in real time.

Similar, similar concept. So now
I gotta get to the HBO again.

Yeah, you do. But see now the
thing that drives me crazy

because we have about 10 of
these stupid services, yeah, me

too, but, but half of them,
including HBO, now you can

either pay more or keep your
same rate, but now you got to

watch commercials, so we're just
back to regular TV, except we're

paying for each individual
channel. It's we're also

watching commercials. What

do you guys get your regular
television through? Mine is, is

I use Hulu for regular TV? It's

$75 a month. Okay? I use YouTube
TV for my regular is that 50?

No, it's similar 7070.
Something. Yeah. It's

like, you cut the cord at some
point, and everything was really

nice and cheap, and they figured
out a way to get you. They got

us exactly

well. And the other thing for us
is, because, I don't know if you

have it on Hulu, one of the
appeals for us with YouTube TV

was it had the local networks.
You know, my wife is loves

particular shows on, like,
certain news shows every day,

that kind of Yeah. So, you know,
today in Nashville, right? Yeah,

you got,

you got to have that stuff,
yeah? Well, that is, that is a

great thing. But, you know, I
just feel like, so, like a bad

friend that, you know, I admire
you so much. I feel like, you

know you, are you? Are you self
taught, for the most part? Yeah,

I am, yeah, because, in fact,
I've taken, I took one lesson

about two or three years ago
from,

oh god, I'm so bad. Dave

Elitch. Dave Elitch, thank you.
Wow. Probably put you through

the meat well grinder, the thing
that

I went to him for a specific
thing, and we did this one

lesson, and it's something I'm
still trying to incorporate my

playing, and I haven't been able
to do it all the way, which is

to not bury the beater, because
tonally, it's just better not to

but being self taught, I just
the original pedal I had was

crappy, and that just whatever.
That's how I wound up playing.

And obviously, plenty great
players do play that way, yeah?

But I'm a fan of the release,
yeah, the open tone. But I just,

I've played for so long, burying
it that I'm, you know, he, he

opened my mind and physicality
to how to do it, but I haven't

gotten comfortable enough yet to
do it on a gig or on a session,

unless it's really light touch
or something. No,

I always thought you wanted to
bury the beat, because I don't,

I think, but that's great.
That's interesting, Jim, because

one of the most recorded
drummers of all time, John

Robinson, who is one of the few
drummers in the world that has

close to perfect time. You know,
he's got, he passes the David

Foster test, basically, like,
take a click track and you will

not hear the click track for
three and a half minutes. That's

not me. I'm Italian. I'm
emotional. No, it's not gonna

happen. It doesn't affect my
ability to get worse, sure, but

I just that's not my thing. He
pulls off and he gets tons of

power. So, like, dude, like, you
know, the roof is on, dude, and

it comes off, right? But all the
players that I all the rock

drummers that I kind of model
myself after the Bucha rose, the

Aronoff,

they all bury it. I know, I
know, for me, it's, I'm such a

big bottom fan, yeah, and that
tonality, man. In, he made it

boom. He did. Did he come off?
He came off? You

have to, because it's a 26 inch
bass drum with no muffling.

That's right, that's

right. Was it always 26 or did
he go bigger than that?

No, I think he was pretty much
always 26

Yeah, yeah, okay, 26 It is,
yeah. He would vary Tom sizes,

sometimes, yes, but he played
tufts, big, old, generally big,

but tuned higher than people
realize. Why

wouldn't you do that? Though? I
mean, just high buddy, like a

jazzer, yeah, like a jazzer.
Why? Why wouldn't you play a 26

inch kick? Is it? You know, you

have to be respectful of the
genre, like we're pushing it

with our 20 fours.

That's true. You know what I
mean? Well,

for coming for country. I mean,
is it country that could be

mixed down 24

is perfect for modern country. I
agree, 100% Yeah. 22 is good if

you want to be a little bit more
polite pop, 20 is a great

overall bass drum. So if you're
playing like weddings and

casuals, and then you're talking
about volume, even the sonic

quality, like a 20, you can
cover the entire history of

music, pretty much, right? Yeah.
But,

I mean, even for a front of
house application, you're seeing

something like that on stage,
it's merely just esthetic,

right? I mean, they'll be able
to mix it and do it. They can

manipulate

it to some degree, but, but
still, ultimately, the thing

that you are making happen on
the stage or in the studio,

whatever it is in front of the
microphone, it can be change and

tweak but, but the original
signal is important, and it does

affect the end result. The other
thing too is on the stage, you

know how what you're hearing as
a player, as you blend the kit,

you mix it yourself, as you play
what the band hears, you know

that's all affected by how big
or small that drum is. Yeah,

there are wedges or ears or
whatever you use, and that's

part of the equation. But part
of it is just, how much physical

air are you moving up there? You
know? What kind of band is it?

What are you trying to achieve?
Wow, I never know

if you're playing in, uh, what?
There's, there's, there's a

couple of bands out now, the
credit, let's say Greta Van

Fleet, right? And they're
totally taking updating Russia,

right? So maybe that drummer's
got a 26 and that's gonna be

great. Maybe there's a felt
strip on the front of felt

strip, and maybe a little, maybe
a, maybe a hospital pillow, but

sheep, you know, but not a lot,
you know, because all of us

guys, we take the DW the bone
hourglass thing, yeah, you know.

And, you know, invented that
like a Disney Scott crego, the

drummer for the Eagles. He was
in a band called Venice, from

Venice, California, in the 90s,
and the and he went, you know,

he was close with John good, and
he said, got an idea. Now it's a

standard giveaway on every DW
drum, crazy, the little muffling

thing. It's like a muffling
bone. Yeah,

I love those things. That's what
I use that and I use at some

point, because I do bury the
beater and for a while there.

Like, you know, if you're on an
arena tour, you can get away,

like I was playing a 26 with
Sugar Land for a while on a

couple of tours. But because of
the way that that batter head

responds, or really the resonant
head bouncing back, and call,

you know, all of that movement
together, burying the beater in

a 26 it can get a little you got
to really bury it hard, or it's

going to get flappy. And so at
some point, instead of a I

didn't have a felt strip
available, so I used a bandana

rolled up and used it like a
felt strip near the top of the

head. And now I do that on every
drum, because I got so used to

how that feels. Yeah, and it's a
nice, I don't know something

about it that's become a thing.
So

when you, when you say, better,
are you just a real question?

I'm getting drum geeky on my
kick upstairs. I'm finding that

I I don't know if I'm
intentionally coming off the

head or if it's rebounding off
that. You know what I mean?

What the thing is, is you don't
want, is you don't want the

flutter. You want to choose
either take and fully commit to

it. So pull that thing off like
you're playing bebop jazz. Bang

comes way but way off. Think

about how when you hit a hit a
Tom, and you take this, you'd

not stick

pulling off, right? But I mean,
when I hit my kick, it's like,

maybe I need to UN detune it a
little bit, make it softer.

I like a floppy kick head on my
power stroke three. Just, you

know, with the flams, I

like the power stroke three with
the dot nine, whatever that

one's called, that's, that's,
but I don't use the flames.

Yeah, that's my go to. So

I was, when I was on your
Instagram, really recently, I

saw your the shirt, the new
Sugar Land kit. And you're not

afraid to just, really just,
you'll use a lot of those big

fat snare drum mufflers, and
you've got, it seems like on

your snare drum, you've got a
full one on there. Yeah,

the one I use, though, and I use
it like 85% of the time on so

much stuff that I do is the very
thinnest one they make, right?

It's called the shining and it's
a much thinner ply than the

normal big fat snare drum. So it
is the full head, but it because

of it being thinner, it doesn't
like even the way the ghost

notes feel in your hand and
stuff. It doesn't affect all of

that. That must be a more recent
product from that. It's

relatively recent. It wasn't on
in the early days. It's been

around, I'm gonna say, five ish
years now, or something, but I.

Because before they existed, and
it so happens I know Chris

mazzeri mazarici From when at
one point Sara Bareilles was out

with Sugar Land and he was drum
teching on, that's right. And it

was around the time that that he
was about to launch big fast air

drum, yeah. And so, you know, I
was aware of it and discussing

it with him early on, but back
in the day, we all used to just

cut out heads and do a similar
thing. Or at least I did, yeah,

and I always liked using the
thinner ply of a two ply head as

my pre big fat thing, you know,
as my homemade one or whatever,

and so, and that was one of the
things at some point, I sort of

said to him, I would love it if
there were a thinner version of

this. Now, you know, it's not
like I was involved in that or

Yeah, but I just always had that
opinion or feeling about it. And

then eventually they did come
out with one good and that is, I

use it much more often than not.

I don't think I have that one. I
have all the models, even the

one with the little ribbon
crasher and the jingles and all

that. It's really fun to have.
So are you committing to that

with as the sound of the snare
drum for the Sugar Land tour

where it's like, say, taped down
and secured to the head and then

your side snare? Is that an A
and F? It is now now A and F

drums. I met that President,
Raffi. What's his name? Rami.

Rami, yeah, sorry. Rami, yeah.
But Romy was like, I know you

played dw, but if you, if you
buy like, like, say, you buy two

or three of more of drums, I'll
give you insane now, because I

know which ones I want, right? I
want the giant pancake ballad,

right, right? Yeah, that thing's
and I want the little crazy one

that you

have. And that little crazy guy
is, man, I love that thing. And

actually, because fairly soon
after they opened, I was in

Austin, gosh, it was five or six
years ago now, because I think

it was there for Frankie
Ballard's wedding, actually, and

I reached out to him. He said,
Yeah, come by. And I went. And

he kind of gave me a tour of the
place. And so then we had a you

know, person to person
relationship. And I called a

year or two later to order drum
from and I wanted, not the giant

one, but one of the thin, Real
pancakey Drums, yes. And he

said, Okay, well, I was asking
some questions about what I

could get away with, tension
wise, on and that kind of thing.

He said, Well, what are you
really intending to do with it?

And I tried to explain. He said,
I don't think that's the drum

you want. I think you want, and
it's the one I have, the little

rude boy that's, like, whatever
it is, yeah? And it's, it's for,

like, loops, first loops,
exactly. And he, he pointed me

to that instead of what I was
going to order. And I love it,

and I use it all the time, yeah,
yeah. And Ludwig doesn't get mad

because it's no, they don't
well, and they don't even make a

drum like that, yeah, there you
go, you know? So and I do. I

love the A and F. I love his
whole model. I love the esthetic

of the stuff. I love all of
that. But at this, you know, but

I've bought one of their drums
because it's something I can't

get from Ludwig. Ludwig, yeah,
you know, has just been so great

to me. Weren't you

originally with DW it was DWI,
because I always look at your

picture on the wall at the
amphitheater in St Louis. Yeah.

So he's he, you know, a younger
version looks exactly the same,

but just all smiles, and he's
playing over here. DW, drops,

yeah, yeah. I'm on a few walls
like that around the country,

and I get a text about once a
month from somebody at one of

the venues, like, Oh, here you
are, you know, with brown hair,

like, obviously, I don't have a
steak in any of aldeans

restaurants, but it's nice to be
plastered all over the wall.

Sure, crack symbols and
drumsticks out there and stuff

that's fun. So Jim, you don't
know about A and F drums, but

it's like a like, the epitome of
hipster boutique drum companies

in Austin, Texas. And they look
so cool, and they sound so

unique, and they have such odd
sizes. But it reminds me of like

a drum that you would find on
like, the Nostromo spaceship

from Alien, right? Just Oh yeah,
yeah, battered and blistered.

And, yeah, I'm looking at them
now. They're cool, beautiful.

They're really cool. Yeah, super
unique. Yeah, they can't be

cheap. They're not cheap.
They're not cheap. It's, they're

small. They're small batch.
Yeah, it's really, looks like

really

big kick drums and four piece.
But they're

not wood. They're, they're all,
well, it

varies. Yeah, they do wood ones
and metal ones, yeah, and the

metal ones are, yeah, they're
cool. That's the one I have. Is

this steel you know? Do they
have

one at forks right now? Do you
know? Because there was a metal

kit there yesterday, probably
they

might, yeah, I would say
definitely. Nelson would,

because that's yeah, they're
esthetic,

yeah. No, I know they have a
bunch of their snare drums. I

can't recall if they, yeah, have
a kid at the moment or not. But

they, I know they carry their
stuff,

yeah. But I just, and then the
reason, the way I said that, I

got pulled away from saying how
much I admire you. And this is a

big boy resume. This is somebody
who's been working in the music

industry successfully since, for
since you were 18. Yeah. I mean,

that's, that is a rarity, yeah,
you know what I mean. And

you're, you're not just
surviving. You have always

thrived, you know. And, and when
I watch you play, I mean, for

everything from. The way, the
tone, the way you strike, you're

touching, your technique, the
tone you get, your posture. You

have good hands, good balance
between the limbs. You have a

feel. You have a groove. I think
that, you know, you can't grow

up in New Orleans and not have a
feeling, a groove. Yeah, it's in

the water, it's in the food,
it's in the culture. It's in,

you know, it's everywhere, but
it's in the room. Even it's in

the room, it's and, and, and
you're, you're not afraid to

dress you know, the because the
disease and being a country pop

drummer is to wear all black,
right? But you go out there and,

you know, you got an ascot, you
got your vests, you know? And I

was gonna ask you, like, I've
always had, I like the vest with

the t shirt thing, I wore that
out. But you always have some

sort of, like, a dress shirt,
but it's not a full length,

yeah? What I was

more up here? Yeah, I'll do a
short sleeve, just because it's

not quite as dressy, but it's
just more realistic. As a

drummer, what's, what are the
brands for short sleeve dress

shirts? I find some

picking notes,

yeah, I know, right. I'm trying
to think there are a couple

websites that are order stuff
from that. I can't think of the

names like H M and so no, but I
do find stuff at H M

occasionally. And actually, I
find stuff at

J Crew. J Crew, yeah, yeah,
yeah. We go into

Tractor Supply.

Car heart, that's right. Our
heart, yeah. Car hearts, very

styling. I like the car. That's
right, yeah, good stuff. There

is good

stuff. Well, that's, yeah,
that's, that's the funny thing

about fashion is, like, when
we've been all in our

perspective, perspective groups
for so long, you know, in the

early days, we were kind of like
a motorcycle gang with the, you

know, the chucks and the the
jackets and the wallet chains

and the right, and you can still
do that a little bit with the,

with the Frankie crowd, where
you got the cuffed up jeans and

stuff, right, right? But it's
like, you know? And then we'll

go through the stage where we
look like the knack with the

skinny ties, and then I'll do
the vest thing, and then we'll

just do the T shirts, or we'll
do the rock t shirt and the

blazer. There's only we've done
it all.

That's true. You know what? I
mean? Well, when you get to our

age, yeah, you've been through a
lot of, you know, eras, yes.

So I'm back to the to all black
with a splash of color on the

ground. Just wear a hoodie.
You're the hoodie. Oh, you know

what? The the gospel chops, R
and B guys wear their hoodies.

And

for me, the hoodies, the
hoodies, too casual. For me, I,

for whatever reason, I like it
to be a little more dressed up.

And that's just, I don't even,
yeah, that's what I feel like.

You know, I'm, it's, it is,
ultimately, it's a form of art.

It's a it's a commercial thing,
but at the same, but it's also,

it's a show. There's show
business happening Absolutely,

and I think you know, but even
in life, you know, how do you

want to present yourself? I
don't know. You know that stuff

matters a bit to me.

It all matters. Manny patties
matters skin branded look, skin

care matter waxing matters a
high dollar haircut. You know,

you know, you and I are not
afraid to spend a lot of money

on haircut. That's true. I added
up at the end of the year, and

I'm like, Well, man, damn. But
it's worth every penny, because

I kind of bought a Mercedes. You
gotta have, you got to have some

good hair, man, you can't go to
super cuts. I mean,

I have my branded look. It's
like, you know, yeah, get up out

of bed and throw something on.
There

you go. But just consistent this
journey, this year. Yeah,

50 by 50. Okay,

wow. What are you? Are you
doing? What is it? Is it more

about diet exercise, at

this point in the in life, it's
got to be about diet. Cheers.

No, I love it. It really is.
Because, I mean, it's, I can do

all the working out in the
world, but you got to get your

nutrition in line. Yeah, that's
true, yeah, dude, hey,

so let's take us back, you know,
because we know that we don't

have to go into your first drum
teacher and all that. What was

the what was the drummer that
inspired you to pick it up?

There was music in your family,
right? There was,

yes, my my dad was a guitar
player. Not in my memory, not

professionally. In his late
teens, early 20s, he was making

a living in a little regional
band in Louisiana, playing, you

know, mostly covers, that kind
of thing. His dad actually did

the same thing. My grandfather
played bluegrass and country

music, wow, in South Louisiana,
and got married and had kids,

and so he got a regular job. My
dad, same thing, got married,

started having my brother and I,
and so he got a regular job. It

became a hobby, but that said
music was important in our

household, both through my
grandfather and my father and

the I have a lot of vinyl, much
of which I got from my parents.

They were record collectors, not
to collect records, but just

because of the music to enjoy,
yes, and so the turntable is on

in our house more than the TV,
you know, it's great. And we all

there was a piano in the house,
and dad played guitar. And so we

would, my brother and I, both,
you know, learned a few chords

as kids and bang around the
piano. And even long before I

played drums, you know, I
remember my dad talking about

music, you know, like, for
whatever reason, I've cited this

example before, I remember this
conversation probably three or

four years before I ever played
drums, of him saying, Okay,

listen to MC Fleetwood in the
middle of this verse. He's just

gonna play a fill out of
nowhere. Like, it's not what

drummers normally do. It's so
interesting, but it works. It's

cool. It's where, you know. He's
pointing that kind of stuff out.

I'm not a drummer at that point.
My brother or I aren't, you

know, it's just that's what's
being talked about in our house.

So it's great, it's cool. It's a
musical household, even though I

wasn't pursuing an instrument as
yet, and so I think around 14

ish, I decided, after playing a
little guitar, and my brother

had done the same thing. He's a
couple years older than me, I

decided, I think I want to
actually try to play bass, and

because it's similar the guitar
dad could teach me, but it's

something new, because guitar
was boring, because we had

always heard it around the
house, yeah, bass is easy. Yeah,

bass is easy or so, right? So I
probably thought and, but my

brother, being older and old
enough to get his first job, he

said, Well, I'm gonna play bass.
And of course, as brothers, you

think, Well, of course, we'll be
in a band together, so I gotta

do something else now. And so
keyboards, whatever, you know,

drums seemed more exciting. So
really, that honestly, is what

set got me turned toward drums
was because my brother was gonna

play bass. Now, what now? What
happened to your brother? Did he

would go into another career?
Yeah, he's an attorney

in Washington, DC, works. Oh,

my God, holy cow.

But his his declaration that I'm
gonna play bass and I'll be able

to buy one, because I have a job
now, it's like, well, crap, what

am I gonna do? And so it got my
head thinking about drums, and

so I bought, right around the
time I turned 15, I bought a

crappy little piece together,
you know, mismatch made in

Japan, drum kit. That was

a 1984

Yes, because Jim and I's gateway
records were synchronicity in

1984 Wow. So you go, what was
the record for you? For

me? Because before I could buy
drums,

I knew I was I was saving up for
them. I knew I was going to do

this. So I'm watching drummers
on TV and seeing what they do,

and I'm air drumming, right? And
yes, the first concert I went to

that I chose and bought a ticket
to was synchronicity tour. And

so it was Stuart Copeland, and
it was, and I was a huge Duran

Duran fan. So I was, I was air
drumming to, and you two early.

You two as well, those three
bands I was air drumming to, and

the first day, I brought those
drums home and set them up. Dad

got his amp out, and we're
playing songs.

It was at the Smoothie King
Arena in New Orleans. No, it

was at that point in high school
my family had moved to Phoenix.

Oh, so yeah, I saw them at a at
a minor league baseball park in

Phoenix. Police madness and the
Thompson twins. Wow, Thompson

told me now, yeah, yeah, that's
the heyday of MTV. Absolutely.

Martha Quinn, or the girl that
talked like that, Nina

Blackwood,

Martha Quinn

was just a Hartley. Nina Hartley
was a porn star. No, no,

yeah, she was, she was totally
But Martha

Quinn, she was

giving VJ, you have a fetish. I

think short

hair? Yes, my wife has short
hair, yes. I mean, I like women

with short hair for whatever
reason. I don't know

the like an androgynous, weird
thing, but yeah, no, it's been

my thing the my entire life.
Well, I was gonna say I like

your My ex wife, yeah, yeah,
okay, yeah. Now I dating a girl

with flowing Yes, blonde hair,
it's good, yeah, you had to

adjust, yeah.

So we mature and our tastes
change. So you're playing along

these records, yeah? And
literally, like, not even

headphones, at that point, I put
my drums are set up in with my

back to the window in my
bedroom, and the speakers are on

the window sill right behind my
head, and shit is cranked,

right? Yeah,

so you could stay with it, yeah?
Sometimes the needle would skip,

yeah, because I bet by

that point I'm using cassettes,
probably, yeah.

And then here's like, your first
touring band is just

the wipers, the wipers, yeah,
are they on Spotify? Yeah,

they're on spot Okay, so this is
I'm putting, I'm circling that

Yeah, and I'm circling
vigilantes of love, yes,

yes, beggars, beggars, yeah, and
the beggars. So the beggars

were, it was, they were on we
signed Island Records. I was the

old guy in the band, and I was
23 or four. There two guys were

21 one guy was 16 or 17, oh my
god, yeah, and he was in the

front man. Was he? No, he was,
he was the bass player, and

there he goes.

Oh my gosh, we're supposed to be
winning people over, just

kidding.

And unfortunately, one of those
guys used the publishing advance

and to sadly, get hooked on
heroin. That band broke up

quickly, even though it was a
bunch of young guys who had this

major label record deal, but it
just kind of fell apart. And it

was right at that time that that
band broke up. If I had that's

when I got the call about
auditioning for Ezra. If that

hadn't happened, I probably
would have stayed with. The

couple other guys from that band
started a new band, which is, I

don't know if you're familiar
with black rebel motorcycle

club. Oh, wow, yeah. So that's
those are the guys in the

beggars. Cool, yeah. So, so

here you are. You're doing your,
you know, your DIY touring,

taking shifts, driving the van,
playing rock clubs, yep. So you

were ready for that with Ezra,
but Ezra was like some big boy

shit. There was one drummer
before you the first big radio

good. And there was,

like a China heavily featured

yeah on the on the upbeat, yeah.
Fine, yeah. And I've played that

song so many times in my life
that I still find myself pulling

that move out on certain like,
it'll just come at the end of a

song. It hasn't been a theme of
the song or anything, but on the

out, yeah, here comes one of
those, like, oh yeah. It's just

automatic

in the DNA. It's in the DNA.
It's in the roof. Yeah. One year

without Dean, I did the double
China,

yeah, way up there, yeah. I
never did it the outfield thing,

yes, yeah.

Well, I, I remember that
outfield songs because I had my

$40 Wuhan and I couldn't wait.
I'm just counting, just waiting

in the garage.

We all had the Wuhan and the the
roto toms.

Yes, the funny thing is, is,
Jim's got, Jim's got a Wuhan

upstairs that's in, it's in
pretty good shape. And the funny

thing about rototoms is you
don't want to get rid of them,

because no place for them. Well,
the thing is, is once you get

rid of them, then you're in a
missing persons tribute band, or

you're in the spasmatics, right?
Because I was in the spasmatics

for a while, and we dressed up
like nerds, and my kit was kick,

snare, floor tom, and then two
of the larger mounted roto tops,

which

I still to this day, have two of
the larger mounted roto toms,

and I use them from time to

time. Yeah, there's any you can
get into Alex Van Halen mode.

Exactly,

remember the Remo spokes it was,
it was mounting the

pieces of playing, yeah? Terry
bazio, yes. But the man the Alex

Van Halen, the 84

Oh, wait, yeah, oh yeah.

So good, right? How do you how
do you not? That

was the most iconic of his snare
sounds in that song, the driest

bone. It sounded like a bone to
me, covered with tape.

Have you seen the video online
where they, they mimic they?

Yeah. It's amazing. Beato Rick,
yeah, and it's the tone, man,

did you do the

I play that song at the tribute?
Which one

did you play? Oh, wait. Oh,
really, I did Mean Streets,

nice. Oh, and at the end, the
thing that I loved, that I had

the the presence of mind to do
at that, by the way, if anyone

didn't know what we're talking
about, it was a Alex Van Halen

halen tribute show, natural
drummers. Natural drums, 15,

yep. So there's a house band,
and then all these different

drummers just hop up and play,
which they do at all these

drummers jams. But at this one,
Alex sent his tech in his kit,

so we all got to play Alex's
actual giant bass drums, so and,

and, man, that the tones. It's
like, oh yeah, those are the

tones, yeah. But the really fun
thing was, at the end of the

song I played, I had the it
wasn't, I don't remember this

being predetermined, but I just
had the presence of mind to play

every dang thing on the kit. So

as long as I have this
opportunity,

were you able to bury the bass
drum beater in that on his

that's a good question.

I probably did, just because
that's how I play. But I bet it

was a bit of a he's got, what,
26 or 12, yeah, and they're

pretty open. You really got to
do it. Otherwise, if you don't

fully commit,

you get to, yeah, that ain't
gonna work.

And I know I don't do that, so I
guess I must let off. You must

let off. Yeah, well, we're gonna

go. We're gonna find out
upstairs. Yeah, Jim is, you

know, Jim, I would say the Jim
abandoned drumming, but he had

to press one of our minds. Maybe
that's

one of our things that we've
talked about for merchant

earlier. Start asking all, I
guess so you want to see my

drums, because that's what I did
the last time

radio. He got into sales. Now
he's, he's a podcast host, you

know, doing producing 20
podcasts, but once, once a

drummer, always a drummer. And
so he, I love him for this. He

had, he had, there's this Huey,
little Huey lose trivi band in

the area. And he said, that gig
is mine. I said, when I

met the guys, I said, I'm going
to be your drummer. And I love

it. He just

made it happen. Oh, that's
awesome. He just manifested. So

he's got a gig coming up at the
scene. Gig coming up at the I

want to go. I want to see this.
Oh, boy, because there's no

pressure at all now. It's good
thing. Yeah, do your thing.

Seriously,

the Huey Lewis stuff is so good.
It's a lot harder than you

realize. It is. Man, they were a
great band, yeah, and it's, it's

funny you talk about, you know,
you mentioned getting lessons

for the first time. You know,
not too long ago? Yeah, Bill

Gibson, we had him on the show,
what about six months ago or so?

Never taken a lesson. Never,
okay, he's starting to take

lessons now. He's in his 70s.
Wow, that's amazing.

Yep, he's working crazy. He's

working on his left foot, clave
and his song go and all that,

all that stuff. Yeah,

it's funny. You know, for
somebody like you, you got to go

and. I would imagine it's, it's
similar to me, because I've

done, been doing voiceover for
20 plus years, and at some

point, yeah, I know, I know my
stuff, but where can I take

this, right? That's right.

What else? What else? What about
what I do? Yeah, what might I

change if I could? But

how many people did you go
through that? Be like, Dude, I

don't know what to do for you,
you know, because I had to go

through that.

Did you? Yeah, for me it was, it
was fairly simple, because if,

for me, it was a very specific
thing, it's the bass drum beater

thing. And Elitch is sort of
known in the drummer community

as the drummer, the teacher to
the pro drummers posture.

They'll find something, yeah,

well, and it's very much, it's
very specifically about posture

and technique. And, you know,

is he kind of like a Freddy
Gruber? Yes, he's the new

Freddie Gruber, really? Yeah,
yeah. Because Freddie Gruber is

all about keeping that snare
drum level with your navel and

well. And I think, I think his,
maybe some of his approaches and

particulars might be different,
but it's the same notion where

he has a very specific idea
about what the best physical

approach to a drum kit is, and
that's what he teaches,

ergonomics, ergonomics, yeah,

because that's, that's kind of
like, that was always my thing

was, I see guys, most
specifically the drummer, and my

brother. My brother's in two
different tribute bands, and

they kind of share a band, but
with two different singers, Bob

Seger and a journey tribute pin.
And the drummer's got, like, I

say, it looks like somebody's
setting up drums for

the first time. Look

in the Craigslist ad

right, right now. You ever see
the Facebook group called badly

sold drums? No, yeah, Jim,

I gotta say you are, you are a
member of every Facebook group.

Every time I go to join one, you
are in it already. Member Jim

McCarthy,

Facebook group, want to see my
drums. Pretty

much. I love Franklin. I love
Spring Hill. I love Cool

Springs, because this guy's
smart. He wants to do business

with everybody. Speaking of
doing business, tell us about

the tenure in Better Than Ezra
being a rock star looking back

at the the glorious 90s, the
velvet rope cocaine era of the

music business, you know,
because I didn't hit my stride

and find my success really,
until I was 34 years old, with

which put me in 2004 2005

so I really only know, you know,

navigating the Nashville music
business, sure, I lived in Los

Angeles, yeah, but you lived in
and worked in the New Orleans

scene, the Nashville scene, the
Atlanta scene, and and the Los

Angeles

That's right, yeah, all those it
was. I feel so fortunate to have

gotten to do it, because I
absolutely love what I do now as

a, as a side man, as a, I also
do some producing. I do some

mixing, so but all of those
things are, you're an

embellisher or hopefully an
improver of somebody else's

material, and so you're part of
a team, and you're collectively

trying to make something the
best it can be. And I really

like that role. And I was never
one. I didn't start playing

music to be in a spotlight, and
generally, drummers, don't I

mean, we're sitting behind
stuff. We were sitting down, you

know, it. But you all, but you
have so much sort of control

over really, what's happening,
you know? But, but, but the role

isn't a look at me role, but,
and I really like that, and that

is more attuned to my
personality. But that said, the

reason I started playing is
because I loved the police in

Duran, Duran, and you know,
whoever I loved at that moment,

and I always wanted to be in a
band where it's your you have

ownership, you have creative
control, blah, blah, blah, you

know, and so having gotten to do
that for the early chunk of my

career in a band that had real
success, I'm very thankful for

because I do know players that
I'm envious of, that play on

huge records and tours, but that
they'll lament a bit I wish, but

I wish I could have gotten to do
the band thing. And so I'm just

so thankful I got to do that,
and it has its own pros and

cons. You know, you got to do
every meet and greet. You got to

kiss every program director's
ass. You've got a radio visit at

430 in the morning. Absolutely,
you know, and you're worried

about ticket sales and you're
worried about the new single.

How's it doing? We don't really
worry about that stuff in what

we do now and so, but at the
same time, we're putting the

songs together, we're producing
the records, we're making the

decisions about what the tour
will be, you know, and so each

again, each role has its set of
pros and cons, but I am very

thankful that I got to do it.
Yeah, it always kind

of eluded me. I tried many, many
times, but there's I. I cannot

complain at all, because every
group that I've been in has been

a quasi democracy, in the sense
that I was in that band, Rush

low. And then, of course, with
Jason, it's very much presented

as a collective. It

is like a band. Yeah, it's like
a band. And that's, that's, I

think that's cool, you know, I
think that's a cool thing about

what y'all have going with
Jason. It definitely, as someone

outside of it, is always a.
Weird that way, you know that it

is a band, nice,

yeah, yeah. And, you know, let's
talk about this. Megan Maroney,

wreck, tube record, yeah, yeah.
And an EP. She's great. Now,

Christian Bucha is the producer,
right? He is so speaking of, you

know, relationships,
relationships, relationships,

yeah, I just look at, I look at
your resume, and I look at all

the threads and the tentacles
that connect everything, and

this begat, that begat that you
have so many relationships in

your life in multiple musical
cities that you will never be

out of work. Yeah,

and I think that's important to
you know if, if part of what we

do here on a podcast like this
is is hopefully give folks some

insight into how we've gotten to
do what we how it works. Yeah,

anything, any gig session, any
rehearsal, anytime you show up

somewhere and play, you don't
know where that might lead. And

so I think it's always important
to remember a as a human, just

dealing with other humans, just
be kind and be pleasant and get

along with people, and if you're
proud of what you do, be

prepared as best you can. And,
you know, just do the best job

you can do, partly just out of
pride of taking on this thing,

this endeavor, this thing we're
doing, especially trying to make

a living out of something that
not a lot of people get to make

a living out but, but also just
with that in mind that even

whatever you're doing at the
moment doesn't pay a thing, but

you just don't know where it's
going to lead. And so I think

every situation and you're
right, that's, you know, and

that's most any journeyman. I
guess you could use that term,

but at this point, for people
like us, if you look at their

career, that's what it is. All
of the wide range of things I do

now all stem from earlier,
things that originally were

fewer, yeah, and you never

mailed it in, and you gave
everybody your heart and soul.

And people can see that, and you
sweat for them, and you're a

professional. You know to be on
time is to be early is to be on

time. And you can take direction
without being offended. And

you're you're a problem solver.
You got all the tones and

everything together. And would
you, I don't, I wouldn't

consider you an introvert.

I by nature, I am. Yeah, it's
something I had to kind of work

on. And I mean, honestly, I'm
driving here, I felt a little

anxious. I'm not, I'm not super
into public speaking or going to

parties. I you know what? I
mean. It's just not my nature,

but partly, one thing that I
think helped me, inadvertently,

maybe my family moved around a
fair amount when I was a kid,

because my dad would get
transferred. It wasn't military

anything, but just in his job.
We would move to different

cities, and so I would have to
middle of the school year, I'm

in a new school. Those kind of
things sort of forced me, to

some degree, to learn how to
make new friends. Make new

friends, limit the shark. That's
right. And then, and that's

exactly what we do on different
gigs all the time, whether it's

different sessions every day or
a new tour you're going to be on

or whatever. Yeah. And so you
come into the room, and so much

of it is, is reading the room
like, you know, who's really

running the show? What's the
chain of command? What's the

chain of command? How open are
they to ideas versus they know

exactly what they want. You know
all of those things matter, and

you're trying to just, you
listen more than speak

initially, to really see what,
what the scenario is,

yeah, what do they say? We have
two ears, one mouth. There you

go. I've never heard that, but
that's that's exactly it, man,

that's right,

yeah, that's right, yeah.
There's some things that come

out of my extrovert mouth that
sometimes I wish I could just

take back and put in the mouth,
but no, I I would consider you.

You're like, A, you're a very
polite extrovert. You know what

I mean? You're a very polished
extrovert. Like, I'm a mad man.

I'm like, bordering on Keith
Moon. I'm not gonna put, I'm not

gonna take an elephant
tranquilizer before I play,

yeah, and I'm not gonna put
explosives in my bass drum and

blow out Pete Townsend's ears.
Right? What it's, you know, you

know,

I there's, they're kind of a
long ish, or it's really kind of

a couple stories I'd love to
share with you, please, yeah,

because they relate to what
we're talking about now, in one

way, what relationships might
lead to, and also the aspect of

personalities within what we're
doing. When I was in my early

20s, still living in Georgia,
before I so the band I was in

the beggars that was in San
Francisco. I was there for about

a year. Oh, my god, yeah. And
then after that is when I joined

Ezra and got to move home to New
Orleans. But before that, I was

in Georgia for my early 20s, and
I was in a band called

vigilantes of love. But I was
also,

gosh, there's so many asides
here.

Sean Mullins was Sean Mullins on
the picture. He or Billy

Pilgrim, Billy both,

they were part of this scene
there. That one thing that

helped me there is I was a band
member in this band called

vigilantes of love, and we had
to deal with Capricorn records

and just kind of sort of making
a living, you know? But I had, I

knew this is what I wanted to do
once I started playing drums. So

I didn't want to go to college.
My parents asked me to go. Just

try semester. It's different.
Then high school, at least give

it a shot for us and out of
respect for them, I did that.

Yes, in that one semester, I
took a recording course, which

was a lab, like at a studio,
hands on. So at 18, I'm learning

recording engineering, signal
path, microphones, yeah, and so

that in my early 20s, then
allowed me to while I'm kind of

making a living as as a guy
playing music, I'm also working

at a studio as recording
engineer. And this is pre

digital. This is analog
recording, so like eight hats,

and even before that, just like
tape, straight up tape, straight

up tape, because this is like

90 so you're learning how to cut
tape, yeah,

yeah,

free Pro Tools days, yeah, yeah.
I had a good time cutting tape.

I liked it, yeah, but don't mess
up. It was half inch tape, not

two

inch tape. Well, and that's it's
the same thing with doing tapes.

It's like, well, yeah, you can
punch in, but really you're

trying to get it's a different
kind of pressure. You know, if

you recorded in that era when
the recording light goes on, or

when you know you're cutting a
take every note top to bottom,

everything you're playing,
you're trying to nail the whole

thing, because you don't. Now,
you know, when I'm tracking

stuff in my house, I'll do two
or three passes and I barely

know the song, because I know I
can then edit together the best

bits and whatever, you know
that's not what it was. And so

that that teaches a different
kind of intensity and focus. But

anyway, so I'm working at that
studios recording engineer. I'm

playing in a band, but I'm also
playing with a lot of these

singer songwriters that have
sprouted up after the Indigo

Girls success in Decatur,
Atlanta, Georgia and so Sean

Mullins was one dick atula. Yes,
exactly. Very nice. And Billy

Pilgrim was another, and
Christian Bush was one of the

two guys in Billy Pilgrim. So
that's our original connection.

Christian, well, Billy Pilgrim
signed a deal, I think, with

Atlantic, one of the major
labels, and I had recorded their

whole record before, and
recorded their demos. And they

were a duo. I wasn't a band
member, but I was doing anything

they were doing with a drummer,
and then they get their record

deal, and they hire their hero,
and Kenny arnoff comes and plays

on the record, right? And I'm 23
or so, and it, of course, it

hurt my heart, it hurt my ego,
you know? But thankfully, all of

five years before that or
something, I had read Kenny

arnoff In Modern Drummer talking
about himself being replaced on

Mellencamp. And he talked about,
you know, he said to Mellencamp

was Rick slasher. Is that who it
was? I remember, okay, and and

he said, But Am I still your
drummer? Because they were gonna

send him home. And Mellencamp
says, Yes. He said, Then can I

stay? I want to learn. I want to
see why I'm not the guy. I'll

sleep on the floor. You're
right. And I remembered that

story, and it so happens that
guy's coming in to replace me,

and I'd been doing session
stuff, you know, so I'd replace

somebody else. I'd been on the
other side of that. I knew that

feeling, and so I decided, okay,
let me learn from Kenny's

example, and do the same thing.
Yeah. So I hung out at the

studio, watched him do his thing
and and he was very gracious,

very kind to me, whereas, you
know, first thing here is, if I

if my ego gets better, I mean, I
go, I'll screw you guys, man. I

played on all your stuff, and
then you get a deal. Now you use

them, Kenny, then that now, then
I don't get Sugar Land 15 years

later, you know what I mean. So
that's the relationship. That's

part of big humility too, right
now. And don't burn the bridge.

Don't burn the bridges. Put your
put your pride

in your pocket, where you your
money. That's pretty good. I

like that for my dad,

I like it so and Kenny was so
kind to me. He pulled me aside.

You guys keep in touch. We not
often, but we run across each

other at a festival or every
once while, maybe a call or text

every few years or something,
you know, but, and he's always

been very kind, ever since that
thing 30 years ago,

whoever swears

he's very blue, yes,

well, and I do remember that
from that, from that initial

Meeting. And I also, like, I
heard him getting sounds up, and

I heard him doing takes. And I'm
like, okay, because this is the

first time I've seen a real deal
that level guy work, right? And

I'm in the studio watching it
happen, and I realize, okay,

he's really good, but he's just
human, like, he's screwing up,

and he's finding the feel of the
track and what, you know what I

mean, it's like, okay, so
there's not magic that I'm not

aware of. He's just dude doing a
thing on a high level, yeah. But

the other thing I noticed about
him was that he was a, you know,

you have much in common with
him. He was a big ball of

energy, of a very positive
energy, you know. And that was,

that was the thing that I
remember thinking, man, if

that's part of what gets you to
that level. I don't know that

that's not built into me, you
know. And I remember kind of

thinking about that aspect, or
taking that in, at least, not

anguishing over it, but being
aware of it. And then roughly a

year ish later, when I'm out now
in San Francisco, I've joined

that day on the beggars, the I'm
getting to play. Play on a

record that, coincidentally, Jim
Keltner is the other drummer on.

So we're, I'm playing on four or
five tracks. He's playing on

four or five nice, pretty cool
and, and he also was so kind to

me, this 24 year old drummer,
and he's Jim Keltner.

Ring goes, favorite drummer,
Jim, yeah, Keltner, yeah,

really. And, and he so I got to
watch him do his thing. And

there's a great story from that,
but, but talking about the

personality thing, the thing
that I learned there was Keltner

is so much more chill, and I
related more to his personality.

And I thought, Okay, well, he's
Jim Keltner, and he's

successful. He's successful, and
so it's and that's when I had

the light bulb of, okay, what
are the two guys have in common?

Aside from being great drummers,
just positive energy. It's not

about if you're a big fireball
or you're Zen, it's, it's just

bringing positivity to the room,
you know. And so that was an

insight for me. But then there
was another moment that was

maybe even a bigger insight that
I love. He was so they had

already done scratch, piano or
guitar, whatever it was for the

given song and vocal, and they
were just getting drums, because

they had Jim for maybe two days.
And so they were just getting

drums and they were going to do
everything else after and so

they're focusing on drums. And
on this given song, they played

him the work tape or the what
he's going to cut to, and talked

about a couple ideas, but he
says, let me just go in and try

some stuff. So they run it. He
plays a take. They talk a little

bit about it. He plays another
take, the engineer, the artist.

People are throwing ideas. What
if you try this on this part?

Blah, blah, blah, okay, you
know. And he does maybe three or

so, three or four. Okay, come
in. Let's talk about it. And

then I think we'll, we'll be
able to map out what the right

drum arrangement is for this,
right? And so he comes into the

control room, and after a couple
of listens, of a couple, you

know, here's, let's listen to
what you did on the pre chorus

on take two, whatever you know,
and either the artist or

producer, somebody you know,
who's sort of declaring, says,

Okay, I think I know how it
should work. If you did the

verse like you did on this take,
and you did the chord and then

the bridge I loved when you went
to the toms or whatever you

know, maps out what the I the
through line should be I as the

fly on the wall and the drummer
and paying taking all this in,

know that they've just told him
to do what he did on the first

take, like he already did all of
this. It was his first instinct,

and it was right. And whoever's
saying this doesn't even realize

that that happened. Yeah, they
think this is their idea of of

frankensteining. But does Jim
have a little smile on his face?

Like, well, that's the beautiful
thing. Is, because I knew at

that moment, I knew my instinct
would be to go, Well, that's

what I did. Let's listen to take
one. It's there. Not out of I

told you so, or I know what I'm
doing. Why didn't you just

listen? Not that, but like,
we're simpatico. We're on the

same page. Yeah, you know, I
think the same thing. We've

already even got it. Jim didn't
do any of that. Jim heard that

whole thing, and he's got his
shades on, and he's just been

chilling on the sofa next to me
in the back of the control room.

And as they've told him, this
rundown of what it should be,

and I'm having all these
thoughts of the he already did

that, and he just kind of leans
back and goes, kind of smiles

and goes, Yeah, man, that's a
great idea. Let me go do that.

And a, it's kind of a, it's a
great idea. I already did that.

Yeah, you know, but it's, it's,
ultimately, we're service

industry. Yeah, doesn't matter
whose idea it was, where it came

from. He doesn't have to claim
it, yeah. He just is gonna give

them what they want and make
them happy. Amazing, but, but to

do it and handle it in that way,
I was just like, wow, it was

such a yeah,

those are two amazing lessons.
Oh, my God. What about what's

the thing with Billy the pill,
the Billy Pilgrim song

California stars was that, did
he write that and then Wilco re

recorded it? Or is he guesting
on the because if you pull up

Wilco on Spotify, the first
song, the most played song that

they have, is called California
stars, okay, but it's Billy

Pilgrim, really?

Yeah, I'm not. I wasn't aware of
it. Okay, cool, interesting,

because that might have happened
later. You know, one because

they Billy Pilgrim carried on
after I moved away, and then I

was in Ezra, and they were still
doing there, yeah, so that's

just, I'm not, I'm not familiar
with that, yeah, aspect of it,

that's pretty cool. I have to
look

into. So all these different
music scenes. Uh, back to Megan

and Rhodey. Had to be fun. Great
songs, great

songs and and we did so we did
an EP, then we've done now two

albums. And is

it the typical one song every 90
minutes? It's

it generally we're doing one and
a half or maybe two, but

sometimes one in the 90 minutes.
It's not a hurry, but it's not

snail pace either. You know. And
it's very much all that stuff is

band in a room, kind of playing,
you know? I mean, and then when

I hear the records back, they
haven't chopped anything up or

done anything different than
what we did on the floor, yes.

And so to me, that's a pretty
comfortable pace. I was so much

of my recording experience was
those early days in Georgia with

those singer songwriters, then
as a band member in Ezra, then

Sideman work as a hired player
in LA I did a lot of stuff with

Warren huert on records he was
doing. And all of that stuff is

different than once. I came here
and started new Nashville

sessions first, like I did one.
I don't know if it was good idea

or not, but I was trying to
learn the number system, so I

went into one demo session and
didn't tell them I had never

really done it, other than at
home, trying to learn it.

So when you're listening to the
demo go down, you're trying to

figure it out. Uh huh, yeah. And
I had, I

mean, I'd read, I'd read Jim
Riley's book, and had some

understanding, but I hadn't done
it on a session, and in

hindsight, like Steve Mackey was
the bass player. Like it's

people you want to impress, and
I just test myself with I'm not

going to tell them, I'm just
going to try and do this. And,

man, I was blowing it. I was, I
would be, I would because the

thing that I've learned about,
about numbers charts and is to

if you're in that role, if it's
a record, and you have time to

talk about arrangement and
figure things out. Great. You

can present ideas and generally
at that level, things are

probably pretty well written and
sussed out already. But on some

of those demo sessions, I would
just not believe the chart. I

understood what I was reading,
but it seemed like such a bad

idea. I just wouldn't want to do
my body wouldn't do it, you

know, like, like, three bars in
the pre chorus, we're gonna do a

push and then wait a bar and a
half. What? That's dumb, you

know? And so I just wouldn't do
it and a five bar bridge, right,

right? And so I learned my
lesson on that. That was like,

okay, you know. But, and
eventually, in that session, I

told him, Look, I've never done
numbers charts before guys. So

they were like, okay, okay, it's
all

works. Yeah, that's what I was
on, a, you know, traditional

national tracking thing. And the
it was, you know, Jimmy the

keyboard player, you know, the
award winning keyword player

that played with, like, Faith
Hill and all. He's big records.

He's like, Yeah, he goes, you
got this kid? It's just, every

time you see a number, it's four
beats. When you see the accent,

it means that it's the ion of
two or the N of four. You see

the diamond looking thing. It's
a ta, da, it's a whole note. You

got this LA, oh, okay, yeah. You
know, it's

so funny. Some of that stuff
that the way, it'll stick with

me, because there's still any
time there's notation written.

I'm like, as soon as I get
handed a chart and I see some

notation that's going to be a
line that everyone hits, or

whatever, I'm like, okay, when
we get to that moment, if

they're playing a work tape or
demo, yeah, I'm making sure no

one's talking to me, because I'm
going to have to either memorize

or make my own little chicken
scratch of what that is, because

I can't read that notation. Oh,
you don't read the room. No, no,

no, no. Wow, you have done
really well for man, I'm, I'm

really, literally, the one
lesson I've had was that one I'm

talking about, about not bearing
the beater. Otherwise, no

lessons, no music school, no.
I'm just like homemade when

you're

when you're doing a track with,
with the Indigo Girls, or Better

Than Ezra. You

don't make your own charts. You
got to memorize it.

Well, it's mostly memorization,
but it's also I do charts,

because I do so many different
kind of gigs now that, but it's

my own language. A lot of it
based on numbers charts. A lot

of it like I remember, you know,
I used to put an X meaning a

stop, but then at some point, on
some session I was doing it

Schoenfeld, somebody said, Oh,
the Dorito, you know, and it's

hard stop, yeah, yeah, oh,
that's so now it's a Dorito. Now

I use that and I call it a
Dorito, like, I remember that,

you know? Oh, my

God, dude, that's really
interesting, because we all have

our unique gifts and talents.
Because you're probably five

bajillion times the engineer I
am, but, I mean, you are, wait,

wait, you are 5 billion times
more the engineer than I am.

Yeah, you said it right. Oh,
yeah, but, but I have this, like

weird sickness with rhythmic
notation. If you could just sing

me a rhythm and I will write it
down. I

wish I had it. I wish I had that
kind of just never it's amazing.

And at this point, like, I would
like to learn it, and I don't

really know the best way of
like, every once in I'll dig

into it for a minute. And
admittedly, it's my own problem.

I won't have the patience and
commitment to continue learning

it, but I'll spend a half a day
like, okay, so what does this

mean? But, but anything? Man,
you know, when we were coming

up, there was no YouTube to
learn anything. So, so now, if

I'm trying to learn something
like that from online

information or even from a book,
you can't ask the book

questions. You don't get
feedback from the you know what

I mean? Like, I need to actually
go to someone that will teach

me. It's like

the universe is confirming
something Jim wants me to. Do my

we're gonna, you know, it's
like, you need somebody's

methodology of charting music
out or something. It's weird.

Came up with that

idea. Yeah, it's our goal to
have this product by

sometime this year, Christmas.
Okay, but hey, let's,

let's, let's look at like you.
Surely you've got to have some

stories about these people that
you're working with because you

said recording work with James
Blunt, she's beautiful. Marshall

Crenshaw, rock star, you know,
my God, Indigo Girls, there's

got to be a story with Lady
Gaga. Daniel powder, like, what

was this one song? Beautiful
day. Suzanne. Vega, yeah,

some of those are

things where I played on a
record and that person was also

on that record, you know. So
some of these people I didn't

work with directly, Oh, gotcha,
you know, like, like, J Lo, it

was a Jennifer Nettles, and she
and J Lo did a song together,

yeah, and Dan Huff was
producing, and I did the drum

track, but I didn't see J Lo,
Oh, yeah. So some of the things

are like, Oh, you could claim
that, dude, it's valid it, you

know, and with the live thing
too, because that's like on

recording. But I'm on the same
record as them. I feel like I

can name them. We're on, I'm on
a record with that person, with

the live because everybody
treats the credits thing a

little different from for me,
the live whether it's toured

with that means I toured with
them. Otherwise, I'll usually

have something that's like live
performances, yes, you know,

specialty performance or live
performance, something where

it's it wasn't a tour, it was a
one time thing or maybe a few

time thing. But in how I do
that. If there was a rehearsal,

I'll claim it. If they jumped on
stage and sang a few backup

lines, I won't claim it. That's
kind of how I if they

jump up on stage and sing a
whole song or five songs, yeah,

I'm claiming that. No, that's
true. Because people are like,

Garth Brooks. I'm like, Yeah,
motherfucker, he jumped up on

stage and we did two songs
together. Did you play friends

in little places with Garth
Brooks. That's what I thought,

right? I'm claiming

to a big audience, I'm sure
exactly. Yeah, no, that's true.

So I think that's valid. So

there's this level of like,
claiming? No, I think there's,

there's probably a little bit,
like, if there's a scale of

integrity, there's a there's a
middle line, you're probably

more on the more Integris side
of things. I try to be. I'd

rather

not. I'd rather leave it off
than claim something that then

someone would call me out and
say, yeah. But so they kind of

like, at one point when they re
rebooted, Lilith fair back in

maybe 2010, or 12 or something,
you know, Sugar Land was on it

for a portion of it. Sheryl Crow
was to at some point she got up,

and because both bands have a
song called All I want to do,

right? So she got up during our
all I want to do, and kind of

sang a couple lines. Well, I
don't have show crow on my

resume, you know, that didn't
count, yeah, you know. But I

played, I was part of a house
band at a benefit at the Ryman,

and Jack White, we had
rehearsals at sir that Jack

White came to and, yes, we
played a couple songs with him.

That's on that I list him, you
know,

let me ask you this, though, is
it one of those things that,

like, is it something you would
call somebody out for? Like,

Well, come on, Dick, it's the
people you apply. It's like a

rule you would apply. You would
have for somebody else, but you

apply

to yourself. So although,
generally, I'm not one to dig in

and try and know, but I have
seen things that rub me a little

wrong, where I know that, like

you notice we were the same
festival together, but they

never actually played the same
time or in the same setting.

That is a stretch. No,

yeah, shared the stage with
meaning open for No, that's

where, that's not. You can't
claim that, you know, yeah.

Well,

I mean, you know, we played with
nuclear assault.

Everyone's like, hold on.
Crickets on there, buddy. Yeah.

No. Jim. Jim. Jim. Nobody.
Nobody

remembers nuclear assault. Was
it like a, really? Was it like

a, like a pop punk rock band
when I was in the renowned and

esteemed band Connecticut, white
bread, yes, yes. Our first gig

was opening for nuclear assault
at the briar patch in Carmel,

New York. Oh, yeah. We've
mentioned that before, yeah. And

we also played for, we played
with overkill. At one point. I

remember urge overkill. I
remember urge overkill, yeah. We

played with overkill. The
original, the OG overkill, yeah.

So like, you know, two years
ago, I was in a CMT house band,

and I got the backup, slash
Billy Gibbons, Leanne Grimes,

Winona, writer Paul Rogers, the
band leader from the Rolling

Stones. Man Warren, I'm putting
on the resume. Oh,

yeah, you know, Pilsner was on
base on that. Yeah, I saw

whatever show that was. I was
like, You know

what? Yeah, of two. That's all
valid for those people. Yeah,

that's the thing.

You rehearse that stuff? You
played with them. You are a

professional who belonged there
and did a good job. Yeah,

absolutely, it should be on your
resume.

Now we're in Detroit two nights.
Kid Rock jumps up on stage with

us and sings cowboy with us in
his hometown of Detroit. I mean,

I'm not gonna lead with Kid
Rock, right? I'm gonna lead

with, you know, two. 25 years
with Jason

Aldi, I shared the stage with
type of credit, right? I put

it on there, dude. I because my
thing is, is that we have

different ways of listing. If I
put, I put recorded toward or

performed with, Okay,

gotcha, yeah, yeah. And that's,
that's all, I think the Yeah.

The only distinction I made is
just make it three categories,

yeah. But I don't have a
problem. You know what? I mean?

Like, it's Yeah, yeah. To me,
everything we've talked about is

sort of common sense about being
reasonable about what you've

done or haven't done

in your days of Ezra, did you
play at a place called toads

place? Oh, yeah, absolutely,
we've played Toad place.

Rich. Have you know, Yale,
right, that was New Haven is it

isn't in your Yale, I've

played in toes place. Many a
time, yeah, many a time. It was

good.

That's a good rock club. Will
Hoke, did you go out with

him for no, I there was a point
at which I we talked about me

maybe touring with him, but I
never have. I worked with him on

a there was a record I was
producing for a singer

songwriter named Steven Kellogg.
And Will is a they have a duet

on it. So, yeah, but I love
Will's music. You know me too.

Yeah, that's so American

rock and roll at its finest.
Absolutely, one of Nashville's

treasures. Two other gigs that
come on come to mind that you've

done more recently. And one of
like is like a triple A type

singer songwriter, artist. You
went out with Gavin Dick Rob,

but then there's another guy.
Oh,

let's see, because I was gonna
say that Colby Calais was the

is, but you said another guy.
That's awesome. Colby Kelly, and

that was just, I subbed a few
shows, but she was lovely. Had a

great band. Musically, it was
very satisfying. It was really a

fun experience. Yeah,

there's another, there's another
guy. He's like a singer

songwriter, triple A rocker, guy
that you will go out and do

things with, recorded with live
performances. B 52 is Butch

Walker, Beyonce, Howie, oh.

Patrick, droning. Patrick,
drone, yeah. Patrick, droning,

yeah. He's so talented, man.
He's, he is just great. And he's

a guy that he's put out a couple
records now. And, yeah, it's, it

is kind of triple A
neighborhood. It's, it's in the,

you know, for lack of a better
descriptor, a lot of people will

use the John Mayer sort of
reference on him, in that he is

a wonderful blues based, but not
blues songwriting. Guitar Player

strat plays strat with a really
soulful voice, and it is on its

Yeah, it's sort of pop rock. And
yeah, I've done some touring

with him and recorded with him,
and just such a talent, and he's

actually working on a new record
now we, I may wind up playing

some stuff on that. We'll see.
Yeah, yeah, but played on his

last one and and just love his,
him as a person and as a town. I

mean, he's somebody that I don't
I think has so much potential to

be so much bigger than he is as
yet. Oh, and also a hell of a

songwriter. I mean, I know Keith
Urban's cut a few of his songs.

I don't know if they've come out
yet or not, but like, he's Aside

from his talents as a player and
singer and producer, I mean, he

definitely has his own kind of
sound production wise, too, but

it just purely as a songwriter.
He's gotten a lot of attention

in town. Yeah. Yeah. Two other

things I wanted to ask you
about, so much stuff to talk

about the Frankie Ballard band,
is that still Eddie and Robbie?

And

it's not at this point. It was
that band initially came back

after COVID, but Eddie, we knew
basically, oddly enough, Frankie

was planning to be off the road
at the top of 2020 because his

daughter was due to be born in
February or March of 2020. So we

knew we'd be off the road for a
while. And of course, that's

when COVID hit. But
coincidentally, since we knew

that was coming, Eddie wound up,
he got the gig with Florida,

Georgia Line. Oh, okay, yeah.
And so ever since then, he's

been doing that thing. And then
Robbie, Robbie, bass player,

bass player who is around our
age, and sort of journeyman,

who's done so much cool stuff,
everything from Keith Urban to

Joe Satriani. Yeah, we did Mindy
McCarthy together. Okay, yeah.

So you know all his, yeah, and
he's just such a character, and

I absolutely love him. Social
media less. Social media less.

Yes, unfortunately, because he's
a very unique and entertaining

and some would say love it, or
love him or hate him kind of

guy, but I absolutely love him.
Yeah, handsome as hell. Yes, he

is and, and, and for being a Mr.
Rugged dude, he's a little too

worried about his fashion, I
think. But there's a focus.

There is focus there, yeah,
yeah, but, but he is a

sweetheart and a great just like
rock and roll bass player, you

know, pick, yeah. In fact,
recently, so he's not out with

Frankie anymore, to answer your
question, because initially

after COVID, Frankie wasn't that
busy, and so Robbie was doing

some other stuff as well. All,
and there started being

scheduled conflicts, and so he
wound up. Now, there's a

wonderful guy named Reno Bo, who
comes from the rock and roll

world, who's playing with
Frankie, but Robbie recently

filled in, I think, about eight
shows with Skinner. Yes. I mean,

he's just built for that. Yeah.
I mean, Robbie, he has a shed in

his backyard. And when he and
he's in this neighborhood here,

he's not far from here, because
he's in

Spring Hill, yeah, yeah, yes,
Evan Hutchings is here. David

Santos is here.

Oh, Santos is a little thing
nice. But Robbie, when he's

preparing for a gig, he goes out
in his shed, he stands up and he

has a microphone, and he has a
PA, and he plays like he's

playing the gig. That's like
he's not sitting there just on

his own, a stool at the house
with a performance. That's

right, yeah. And he is all in on
it, you know, I think it's cool.

That's a really cool

thing. That's cool, Robbie. And
then the last thing was gonna

ask you about is that you've
been doing this David Bowie

tribute

thing. Yeah, man, that has been,

I've felt so honored to get to
be a part of that, because it's

numerous heroes of mine are a
part of it, you know. So it's

the show is, it's like a over
two hour show spanning Bowie's

career, and it's in so it's all,
it's such a variety of music,

you know. So that part of it's
fun, just from a musical

standpoint. And it's generally,
we're playing theaters. So it's

like 2020 500 seats, beautiful
old theaters, you know. So

that's, I love, those kind of
tours, just Persian rug tours.

So, yes, exactly, just big
enough to have bus and crew,

but, but you're not at a shed
outside of town somewhere.

You're at a beautiful, old
historic theater, and you're

downtown, and you can walk
around and see stuff. And

there's so many things about
that level of touring that I

love. And so they have new
there's a band that's the band,

and then they have these various
front people that sing different

songs of his Gary Oldman. No,
Gary Oldman has done it before,

but I didn't get to do it with
him on the touring I did. Todd

Rundgren was part of it. Yeah,

the

Royston Langdon, who was the
singer for space hog, oh, he was

a huge fan of and is the most
Bowie like, voice wise of the

bunch. Did you ever

work with my friend Jeremy
little? He's like a background

singer. Well, he's a composer,
but I could have one. He used to

do it with old men, okay, yeah,

because they have, they've,
they've done various tours, and

it'll be a different collective
of people, you know. But also

Adrian blue? Yeah, he was, he
was on the stuff I've done, and

he was such a hero mine
originally from the King

Crimson, sort of mid 80s. King
Crimson stuff is

Adrian on here? He better be on
here. Man. Oh, yeah, I might not

have him on Saturday live
performances with Adrian. If you

pulled

from my website, my website's
old. A lot of the latest stuff

isn't on there.

But yeah, and you know, you have
a wiki.

Did you start that? Or someone
else? I didn't start it's, it's

the weirdest thing.

I'm pretty sure that it's a guy
that was a big Ezra fan, and

he's a drummer and a singer and
that I'm friendly with, and I

think he's the one who
originally started it.

That's the thing about the wiki
is so I don't know why I don't

have one. I don't have one, but
if somebody starts it on your

behalf,

Your fate is kind of in their
hands,

I know. And so thankfully, it
was this guy, Jim, who has

always been a sweetheart, and
one of those rare in my world

fan that becomes a friend, you
know, like he was a real Ezra

fan, but it was always
respectful, and it was always

very much about the music. And
so eventually, like, Hey, I'm

coming through with Sugar Land.
Do you want tickets? Like we

became friends, yeah, yeah. And
so thankfully, from for me, he's

the, I'm 99% sure he's the one
that initiated it, and so he

knew enough about my history and
my and you know what, it's

respectfully done, although, if
I haven't looked at it in a

while, but I think it says
something like, you know, best

known for Better Than Ezra,
because that's how he knows me,

you know, whether or not that's
how I'm best known at this

point. Who knows? You know. But
that's it reads that way because

of who wrote it, you know. So
that is part of the thing with

wiki, yeah,

I love it, Jim, you're awful
quiet is, you know, we got a

world class trimmer here.
Anything that's under your mind,

top of mind,

I'm just still thinking about,
you know, the studio credits and

all that stuff, yeah,

then, and how people listening?
Like, I have a question about, I

was gonna say, on my side, if
you go really deep, I'll have a

thing called limited
engagements. Okay, so that's

where you got, like, your Steve
Allen, Phyllis Diller, Randy

Brecker, you know, just like the
stuff for you, like, one night

only, okay, yeah, most people
don't know who these people are

unless, like, they're jazzers,
right, or very old people.

Phyllis Diller, two weeks with
Phyllis Diller, I got cool, and

I almost went, I went into her
dressing room. I shouldn't.

Knocked, I opened the door, ah,
I saw without her wig. Oh, wow,

yeah, she was close to that. It
was just frightening. Yeah, that

must have been terrifying. She
was an older woman. This is a

dangerous job, with zero hair.
She had no hair and a big old

wig, and she was the first
celebrity ever to get

liposuction. Is that right?
Yeah, crazy. Crazy factoid.

Okay, Jim go. Well, I

was gonna go back to the you
talked about the Aronoff when he

came in and recorded, what was
that? You know, that was the

early 90s. That was the early
90s, so that he was

transitioning out of Mellencamp
at that point into the Smashing

Pumpkins, right?

Yeah, that was pre Smashing
Pumpkins. Yeah. It might have

been post Mellon camp, or he
might have still been doing

Mellencamp. I don't recall for
sure.

He was kind of get into that.
Into that, dare I say,

alternative space, yeah,

yeah, yeah. And, and sort of
really making his mark at that

point as, like, session or tour,
just dude for hire, as opposed

to being, before that, being
known as mellencamps guy. Yeah.

So you

and I have been with our
respective ex longer than he was

with Mellencamp, and it seemed
like he was there. He was there

17 years. Oh, wow. No kidding.
Okay, 18 years. Yeah, yeah. How

long have been plowed? Jason, 26
years. 26

years. That's amazing. I gotta
say that.

You know, next time you see
Jennifer tell I said, Hi. I was

no idea who I am, but I just saw
her about a week and a half ago.

She seems like a sweetheart. She

is a sweetheart. She is, she is.
She is such a talented singer

like way beyond what most people
realize, super consistent, takes

it very seriously, does all her
warm ups. She has done a lot of

training, but she also is. And
the thing I recently did with

her, aside from the Sugar Land
tour in the fall, was we just

recorded a record. She's been
filming a new series. Her and

Kevin Bacon are a couple in it.
And there are musical elements

to the show. Their characters
are musical. It's not a big part

of the show, I don't think, but
they have some. So they wrote

some songs for the show, and a
few of those were used in it.

But then they decided, because
they wrote more than were

needed, they said, well, let's
just make a record in the voice

of these characters, you know?
And so I just went up to New

York and we tracked that, which
was awesome. And I think one of

her strengths, along with her
just her vocal ability as a

performer, is she comes, she's
wound up transitioning into

acting and because she comes
from a musical theater

background. So even as a singer
with Sugar Land, when you know,

most nights, the band leader
Scott Patton and I will often on

the bus, watch the show after
the show, the imag like your

Aaron Rodgers, yeah, like game
tape. Totally, yeah, and, and

so, of course, so much of the
time the cameras on, so I'm

seeing her perform in a way I
don't get to see when I'm

playing. And she is not only
singing wonderfully and

connecting with the audience in
a real way, but she's acting

every lyric almost not in an
over exaggerated way, but

emotionally, she's delivering
whatever she's saying. You sense

that she's feeling that at the
moment, whether that's whether

she really, she's, she's, I
think that's part of what's

compelling about her as a
performer, you know. And also,

as you say, she really is just a
sweetheart, and she's really a

very sharp, savvy person, you
know.

Well, it's funny because, I
mean, she's got, what do you

say? She she sings, like with a
rubber band in her mouth. She's

got that Southern drawl, yeah.
She definitely does, yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, and that

is authentic to who she is.
She's from South Georgia, and,

you know, she, like anybody that
has traveled the world and has,

you know, educated themselves
and that kind of thing, yes, she

can turn different accents on
and off or whatever, but, but

that is what you hear her do in
Sugar Land. Is not, it's not,

it's what she it's who she, it's
what she comes from, coming

from, like a Broadway, you know,
show tunes, background and,

well, and, but she was doing
that originally in South

Georgia. Yeah, it's just now
she's actually done it on

Broadway. And in a way, her
turning on the accent. That's

not that is the is the acting.
You know what I mean? Because

that's what the role requires.
It's the whatever she's acting

in Chicago or wicked. That
person's not from South Georgia,

so she's not going to sound that
way. But when you talk to her,

especially if she's giving you a
little sass, it's gonna get

sassy. Yeah, that's that she

projects too. She's got a big
voice. She does have a big, vast

Tina Turner. That's a big,

vibrating chasm, they do. I got
the I got the back her up on a

couple songs on that show,
American super group. It didn't

make it to TV, okay? She was one
of the celebrity judges, and I

got the back her up. She was
very nice. You saw smiles. We

saw her in a movie. I can't
remember what it was, good

actress, yeah. And it was one of
those people like, why do we

know this? But she was so
familiar and all of a sudden,

like, oh my god, right, right. I
can't remember what it was,

yeah, yeah, she's but she's
still doing anything with Bon

Jovi at all, or anything like
that.

No, he came and did. He's on my
resume because he came and did.

He would occasionally come and
do, who says you can't go home

with with Sugar Land, you have
every right to do that's right.

We have a. Theme. Now, yes, on
this episode, but, but I don't

think they've other than him,
maybe occasionally performing

that song with us. I don't know.
I'm not aware of any other you

know, them working together, or
anything else, but,

well, getting to, like, even
it's fun because I followed you

for a while on social and stuff
like that, and you and a button

like, kind of like a cadre of
other people here in town. You

guys hang together, and it's a
lot of fun to watch all the

Kevin Murphy click. And it's
funny because I did see you guys

do your drummer's lunch one time
in SAM. Zoe, oh yeah. And, you

know, I read, I recognized all
of you, Ben, from Kevin Ben, and

you got, yeah, Keo, definitely
you were, you were the four most

recognizable people, and I
think, but you had like, seven

or eight people at the time,
yeah, and I had gotten lunch,

and I'm like, I should just
introduce myself. And I'm like,

No,

well, next time. Well, I will
now, but you know,

yeah, I gotta see Kevin Murphy,
being like, Who the hell

is this guy? Well, salmon Zoe's
is a very small place. There is

a meeting. That's true.

You're right. It is. It is kind
of unusual. We probably took the

holding place over. It was about
six

guys, I think, okay, there's

no privacy in that place. No,
you're gonna be sitting next to

someone. You be like, hey, so my
divorce repeated proceedings are

going to,

I know it's like, yeah, it's
thinking about

burying the body. I'm

thinking about burying the
beater.

By beater, I mean body,

right? Yeah, and any of those
things. If Murphy's present,

he's gonna be the ring leader.

Definitely a strong person that

he is just so willing to just
fucking say it.

He is absolutely willing. I
remember back maybe the first

year or so I'd been playing with
Sugar Land. And I, after Sugar

Land was done for the year, I
filled in for Little Big Town.

They were out with Carrie
Underwood, and just needed to

finish the year whatever had
happened with their drummer

situation. And so I was out with
them. And so they, I was sort of

discussing with them, as they
were looking for who would be

next, you know, and they were,
some guys were some guys were

coming out and auditioning at
sound checks and stuff. And I

recommended Murphy. And so this
is whatever, 2008 or something,

maybe, and, and I feel like I
got word back. Well, maybe I

didn't even get word back. Maybe
I just looked for myself at the

time would have been Facebook,
probably. And then it's the same

as now he was posting whatever
his opinion was at the moment.

I'm like, well, he's not gonna
wind up playing for a Little Big

Town, if that's what he's
supposed you know, if they look

at this at all, and I told him
that I'm like, just so you know,

this is a thing. Be aware of it.
You know, not maybe not care. He

does not care. And at that time,
he acknowledged it. We talked

about it and, and, but I think
he has just decided, whatever it

would, you know, he just is let
the ships fall. That's right,

and I admire that about

he's still working. Yeah, he's
fun to watch, man. Yeah, he's a

solid player.

He's a great player, great
player, and a great friend, you

know, yeah? Well, at

this point in time, you'll be
able to proudly say that to you,

you shared a podcast studio

with me. There you go. It's
going on my resume.

You You have every right, every
right. I will not judge you. So

you and

I could if we wanted to, Ludwig
drums, pro Mark sticks, Remo

heads, zillion symbols. Well,
I'm, I'm a DW and Sabian, but

ProMark and Remo and extreme
isolation headphones, we could

do a clinic together. We could
do a clinic.

We could totally, totally,
should. Yep, I've done, I've

done one or two clinic like
things in my life, and I just

can't bring you joy. No, it's
not that, it's not that I just,

I feel, you know, I guess all
people have some measure of

imposter syndrome or whatever.
But, but I there is something in

me, partly because of, you know,
and I don't wear it like a badge

of honor, the self taught thing,
because we all learn from so

much of what we listen to and
see and hear and whatever. But

because I wasn't given lessons
and I didn't learn notation, I

did. There was no academic part
of my coming up, I always feel

like, well, then I don't know
how to start. I don't know where

what I have to share. But, you
know, slowly, I'm shifting my

thinking and doing it well I can
just share my experience. And so

I have started thinking more in
terms of trying to do more of

that stuff,

because academia can really hurt
you. You know what I mean? It

goes other way. You know what I
mean? There

are people with business degrees
that, you know, there are people

that have run businesses, that
can think and talk circles

around people, and

college is becoming less of a
thing. And you were a you were

ahead of the curve. There you
were like, You know what? Yeah,

this is working for me. I know
that how this works. I'm gonna

go down this path. But

I mean all those valuable
stories, as you told just on

this podcast, having humility
and, you know, putting your

pride in your pocket. You know,
that's Dude, that's that's

invaluable. Yeah,

yeah. What are, how about those
extreme isolation headphones?

Those are great, aren't they? I
love them. Use the ex 25 or the

ex 29 I don't remember.
Honestly, I use the 25 seems

like the 20 nines. Are too
bright. Okay,

I'm trying. The ones I use most
of the time are the ones that

for. I don't know if they're
still doing it, but for a minute

they were making some that they
then one or the other licensed.

They say Telefunken on them. Oh,
god, they're the Telefunken

branded ones, but, but they're
made by extreme eyes. I missed

that period. Yeah. So those, I
have a few of their headphones,

but the pair that I go to all
the time are those. It's the

more squared looking ones,
whichever model that is, like

back in elementary school, and
you put the record player on,

remember those, those
headphones? Or was it just me,

bulky headphones, yeah, like
they were square. I never I

didn't have, we as a kid, we had
the radio shack, kind of round

ones, but they were big and
bulky and kind of greenish,

like what Ben Stiller was
wearing, and, uh, Starsky and

Hutch when he's jogging on the
beach. Oh, my God, that's

fantastic.

I miss Radio Shack, man. Well,
you can get your male female

applicators, yeah?

Well, actually, fries kind of
took their place. But we don't

have a fries out here, yeah?
Fries, California everywhere,

yeah, Nevada as well, yeah. But,
man, this is, this is really, it

was a pleasure getting to know
you. Man,

yeah, yeah, well, you're just so
accomplished, yeah, you know, I

mean,

yes, I like that. You can you
swim equally in the studio and

live, and I love that, because
people always like, I was like,

Dude, I just told myself I
didn't put limitations on my

mindset. I said I am going to be
a touring drummer. I'm also

going to be a recording drummer.
I'm also going to be an

educator. If I do all those
things, they will cross

pollinate and I'll never be
bored, right? Yeah, you

know what I'm going to propose
here, based on what we talked

about earlier, about drum
clinics. Well, you and I have

been talking about doing round
tables. Yeah, you know three

guys, or, you know, ladies in
here as well, yes, and having

fun conversations, just whatever
comes up,

yeah? Because the other drum
podcasts are not doing round

tables. No,

we can do that. Wouldn't that be
cool?

I think it'd be awesome. Yeah,
yeah, I did one of those. It was

like a special certain number
episode for national drummer

podcast,

was it Nashville drummers or
working working drummers?

Podcast with Matt Krause, yes,
with

Matt Krause. And it was, it was
McHugh, and maybe was it Hubert,

I can't remember, but it

was three of us, Oh, yeah. And
it was over at the drum

paradise, yeah, yeah, yeah,
upstairs,

yeah, yeah. And so that's the
only time, you know, it's not a

regular thing anyone is that I'm
aware of it. I think it's a

really

cool Yeah. Matt is our next
episode because in it timed out

perfectly with them. 500th

episode. He'll be out tomorrow,
tomorrow. Oh, cool. But, I mean,

that's amazing. We need to start
looking at that. Okay, so every

now and then getting some of
these guys that are that have

just, you know, you're all in
the same kind of fraternity,

yeah? Well, but also, go ahead,
yeah, in a drum clinic sense,

why not have three or four
drummers in the same clinic,

like star power. You

know I did, I did a couple with
um, Troy, lachetta and Sandy

Gennaro. Okay, so both childhood
heroes, because I would sit with

my cereal in the morning and
watch these guys on MTV, sure.

And then later in life, they
become friends. Wild. What kind

of cereal? Um,

Wheaties, corn flakes, Cheerios,
Honey Nut, Cheerios, honey

and cherries, Captain Crunch. I
like having crunchy cuts the

roof of your mouth. It

does. I really love, I love
Captain Crunch, and I never buy

it. Because, literally, two days
ago, I was looking at the

groceries like, those look good,
except That'll hurt, and I

didn't buy the

thing you got to do. You got to
buy the Malto meal version,

okay? Because not familiar the
Cal like the mainstream

versions, they've completely
bastardized them, okay? And I

think the Malto meal, they're
called the mom brand. Okay,

don't ask me how I'm such a
serial expert. But anyway,

they're the ones that come in
the bags. Oh yeah, but they're

not generic. They taste like how
they you remember them? Oh,

okay,

nice. Interesting. Okay, don't
ask me how good to know.

Interesting.

But we're gonna hopefully be
kissing all these like additives

and GMOs and stuff, goodbye,
that's what they say. Who knows?

Yeah, is it time for the Fave
Five? Yeah, favorite color? Oh,

wow,

wow. Oh, man, it varies. Yeah,

because you're, you're a well
dressed man. I'm gonna guess

red.

I don't know. I don't know.
Really, I lean into kind of

blacks and grays and more
neutral stuff, blacks and grays,

bro, yeah. So

somewhere between black and
gray, yeah, I suppose Blay

favorite food or dish, wow, wow.
As

of late, I

would say, I think if you know,
occasionally, there's the

conversation of, if you can only
eat once you know ethnicity or

style or whatever of food. For
me, it either be Mexican or

Italian, nice,

not Cajun, huh? No, but I love
it. I mean, I do love it. I

absolutely love there's a place
down here that maybe it's in

Colombia. I'll give her a shout
out. Go. Gosh, what

do you do? Like when you go to
New Orleans? Do you still are?

You know, is Cafe Du Monde to
touristy? No,

man, I you know what? We have.
My wife and I've been going back

there more in the last couple
years, more frequently than we

were for a while, and in since
the in that couple of years,

since we've been doing that, I
hadn't been to Cafe Du Monde,

and every trip we were there, I
would want to go, and we just

wouldn't fit it in. And so
finally, this last time I was

there, I went, and I was like,
Yep, it's as good as I remember

when

I was chicory hot, black chicory
coffee. That's that melting in

your mouth

I make. That's the drip coffee I
make every morning in my house.

Is chicory coffee.

What's the brand?

CCS. CCS, do they have it at,
like, your public's and

Kroger's? At Kroger? Yes.

So it's a red bag cc's, which is
for, it stands for community

coffee, which is a Louisiana

brand, yeah, that's right. Wait
a minute, community coffee,

community coffee, New Orleans
brand, I met their owner, and

just their regular flavor is
chicory.

No, they have a bunch of
different flavors, yes. And so

it's a red bag with a yellow the
specific, because all the

flavors have a different little
square, and it's a yellow square

and it's chicory, but it's

typically their brands are,
like, it's a it's a white and

red brand,

nice, yeah, you know, we drink
is Don Francisco, oh yeah, it's

a night. It's, like,

very specific, is it in the can?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, vanilla nut or

Hawaiian. Okay, just like the
graphic design of that brand,

yeah, look,

I met the CEO owner of community
coffee when I had to do some

video shooting in Baton Rouge.
Oh, cool. Okay, and she was,

she's delightful, and I was
trying to think of, they

actually have it at the Mercedes
dealership up in the Music City.

Okay, so cool, yeah.

As of late, favorite drink? Ooh,

well, really, back to coffee. If
we were talking alcohol, lately,

I've leaned toward maybe gin
drinks. Wow, that's a relatively

recent it eludes me

so like a gin Martin, yeah, yes,
because I always go with a vodka

martini.

Yeah. In fact, I would say a,
whether it's vodka or can be

done with gin. A Moscow Mule is
probably my son go to,

especially if you have the real
that's, yeah, if you have the

copper mug, because it's so
cold, which, I love that, and I

love the fizz of the of the
ginger beer.

Nice. Yeah, that's, that's
really good. This is so tough as

of late. Or it could be, of all
time favorite song. Oh,

it's, I'm not big on favorites,
but I do. There are a couple of

few songs that definitely you
can name a couple. Always speak

to me if I, if I had to name
one, I might say the Beatles in

my life. Wow, yeah, that's just
so good. And I am, you know

that, speaking of my dad being
sort of an early musical

influence on me, my dad wanted
to be John Lennon. So Beatles

were the thing very most played
in our house. And so I've heard,

I can't remember. There's no
Beatles song that I can remember

the first time hearing it,
because I've heard it all since

before I can remember, you know,
so that is built into my, into

me, from from him and so and
within the Beatles, although

it's difficult, if I had to name
a favorite, it's John and John

songs. And to me, that one in my
life is is just

beautiful. Remember what

best net said Ringo

is if you take the drums

and isolate them in any Beatles
song, uh huh,

there you go. How do you feel

about the Apple thing? Did you
watch the apple 10 hour? Peter

Jackson, yes, I did. Yeah,

fascinating. I'm such a for me,
the the top drummers are Bonham,

Ringo and zigaboo from the
meters,

wow, that's a great

mix. That's why you work every
day. That's the, those are the,

you know, and it comes from, I
mean, Bonham is just, just the

touch, the tone, that
everything. I'm a rock and roll

drummer at heart, and he's the
ultimate rock and roll drummer,

I think. And then, you know,
growing up in New Orleans and

just the meters really represent
that musicality and that feel

that vibe. There's no songs
there. It's just riffs. But the

way the stuff feels

Baba do about the

band, yep, so good.

Nice. But then growing up with
on the Beatles, the song, craft

and the melody, all that is so
important to me and so and even

the uniqueness of Ringo tones
and feel and creativity of

parts, you know, so the
combination of those two things

is what I think of as my sort of
touchstones, dude, you know

that?

I mean, I think that's why I
just see, not secretly, I'm here

in a very public forum, going, I
love you. Travis McNally, I love

Travis McCarthy. You know, you
put all those things in a

blender, and it's like, I think,
you know, Ringo. Favorite Phil,

but the tea towels, right? I
think that Phil has been on

Sugar Land Records. I feel that
Phil has been on Megan Maroney

records. That's definitely been
on Jason Aldean records, you

know, yeah, um, yeah, I'm an
overeducated rock drummer.

You're a rock trimmer at heart.
Um, what was in Oh, one time I

was hanging out with Zig Uh huh
at Nam Oh, cool. And I had just

started acting, and he goes, he
goes, Oh yeah, I could see you

doing that shit.

I really took it to heart. Nice
guy.

That is awesome. I've met him in
passing only a couple of times,

but he's such a hero. You know
Stanton. I'm good buddies with

Stanton. I've known him for a
very long time. We

have so many millions of mutual
friends, and really, I'll just

see him at like pace and I'll
give him a quick hug. We have

not spent any time together. I
love what he does. He's so

great. I love what he does too.
I love you know, he has that

passionate educator thing that
you have, which is wonderful,

but then he's got a band, and
yeah, that's he does so many

different things musically and
who he is as a player, I love

that he is the representation to
the current learning people of

New Orleans drumming, because I
think he does it in a really

aside from as an educator and
how he explains things, but his

playing, it's very authentic.
It's the real deal. You know,

Johnny

Vida COVID passed the torch.
Yes, totally, totally, yeah.

And so, yeah, I love him.

Earlier talking mentioned, my
wife has done so many different

things. One of the thing things
that she did is, when we were in

New Orleans, she had a couple
men's clothing stores, and so

they were, it was called Style
Lab for men. And so she had this

series of ads of different known
people in town doing whatever in

their clothes. And it would say,
whatever in style. And so there

was one ad that was drumming in
style, and it was Stan and I

playing together, you know. And
so for the photo shoot, for

that, we're both just in on very
minimal, like, kick, snare hats,

kind of kit, all crowded in
close, you know, you guys are

dressed, yeah, yeah. And we're
dressed in all the, you know,

clothes from the shop. And so
we're trying to figure out, you

know, at first we just start
playing a little, but then the

photographer was like, Well, you
know, I'm trying to capture

whatever movement and stuff. And
so Stan said, Okay, so I've

learned this. If you just play
the the wind up monkey thing, it

winds up good in photos. So
we're just sitting there going,

boosh, bash, boost, bash. Like,
really, yeah, just the dumbest,

simplest thing you'd think these
two New Orleans drummers would

be getting all because, you

know what, some of the greatest
press shots I've ever gotten

were from pretending to play
same because we have the worst

face. It's true, yes, yeah.
Like, you have a press shot

right now where you know, you've
got the Ascot on it, you're in

your studio, and it's, you look
great, yeah, you know, and, but

it looks like, I think you post
it comes,

it's great. It's both, because
you're right, that is

ultimately, otherwise,

you make stupid faces and we're
sweating there.

Every once in a while, there'll
be some live shot that almost

looks like a photo shoot, but, I
mean, it's like, once every five

years you get something back.
It's like, oh, that's actually

really cool. It's well lit. And
I'm not making a crazy face. I'm

not stupid sweaty and I'm like a
needle in a haste. It is, it

really is. Mostly it's just
like, exactly this is

going to be difficult for you.
Same thing as of late, or just

of all time, favorite film, oh
man,

wow, yeah, that's gonna be tough
for me. Gosh,

it comes on. You could sit down
and watch it

start. I was gonna say I have
one of those lately, because it

has been coming on lately. And
every time, my wife and I'll

stop and watch it and talk about
how great it is. Moneyball. Oh,

okay, yeah. So that's, yeah,
that's an as of late answer, but

at the moment, that's just one
that has struck us. Every time

it comes on, we're like, oh
yeah, this is great. And we just

watched the whole

now, do you guys have similar
tastes in films as a couple?

Like, you know, sometimes
there's couples are like, one

person loves horror films, one
loves romantic comedies. But

mostly

we're in pretty much the same
neighborhood. Once in a while

there's something one of us
might want to see the other is

not interested in. But
generally, TV movies were mostly

on the same page. Thankfully,
decor at our house, all that

kind of stuff, we're just on the
same page, yeah? Otherwise, I

mean,

sometimes you're married to a
woman for a long time, and she

really could be in like, you
know, doilies and BRIC a BRAC

and all that kind of stuff. And
I'm like, Oh my God, right, but

I've been lucky that every woman
in my life has had almost like,

masculine, you know what I mean.

So that's worked out, yeah. So
why Moneyball? Are you a

baseball fan? It's,

I am a baseball fan. I don't
follow it currently. As a kid,

growing up, I was a big baseball
fan, but it's not as much about

the baseball. It's really just
about the just the it could, it

could be set in almost any
industry, but the inner workings

just the nature of the
relationships and and the acting

and the right. I don't know.
It's just, it's a,

I don't know it's a funny movie
to watch because of the strategy

he devised to really kind of,
you know what? I don't need to

have the best players. I just
need to get them on base, right,

right, right. Yeah. What's the
mathematical Well, right.

That's the thing. It was the
embracing of the of the actually

using stats as opposed to
intuition, or that guy likes,

like, yeah, exactly. And, but
the thing that part of what's

intriguing about, I think, is
the, because the what's his

name, the younger actor in it,
no, oh, it's, gosh,

he's the he was heavy at the
time. Uh huh,

gosh, what was his name? That
dude?

Yeah. Anyway,

he's the one really, with the
strategy. But the Brad Pitt

character is the one who
embraces it, yeah, and, and just

is absolutely, are we doing it
this way? Are we not? Because if

we're doing it this way, we're
doing it all the way. He was

taking the big risk. Yeah, he
was taking a big risk. And, you

know, I've read, I got intrigued
enough about it recently to do

some reading, and it wasn't
quite as heavy handed or as much

of a problem within the team as
it's as they portray in the

movie, because, of course,
they're going for drama, but,

but just and again, so not even
talking about necessarily the

real thing, but just that movie
as a movie. That's part of what

I think is compelling about is
that he's just like, nope. We

believe in this concept. So no
matter what anyone else, the

general manager of the team or
the press, what anyone thinks,

Screw him. We're doing it this.
We're going for committing.

Yeah. Jonah Hill, Jonah, thank
you. Thank you. Thank you.

Chris Pratt was in that movie.
Oh, wow. And God rest his soul.

Philip Seymour, yeah,

one of our greatest actors

right now, which is awesome.
Just saw the other day that he

passed away much longer ago than
I really Yeah, was it like 20

years? Was it heroin? I think, I
think

it was. It was really sad,
because he was great. He was

great. He was great. I

think he was you, I don't think
he was shooting it, he was

snorting it, or something
shorter, because he was in The

Hunger Games, Movies, okay, so
those were, I don't know if

those were a decade, yeah,

with Elizabeth Banks, yeah,
she's on my list. Give a list,

what's your hall pass? It's
funny, because that movie

reminds me a lot of one of my
movies is The Big Short. Oh,

yeah, sure, yeah, I can watch
that movie, anytime, yeah, with

what's your name the well, it's
Barbie. Robert was in it. Oh

yeah, right. Steve Bucha, not
Bucha me. Steve Carell was in

it. Brad Pitt was in it. Big
cast, totally. And Batman,

Christian male, yeah, Batman. Oh
my gosh. Hey, what's your

question? Jim? My question, as
always, is, you know, if someone

holds a gun to your head and
said you got to pick a band, a

tribute for the rest of your
life. You can't do anything

else. It's this, is it, man,
it's gonna, it's gonna cover all

your basic needs, but every
single day, playing the music

over and over and over, probably
the Beatles.

There you go. Yeah,

fairly easy ones, nice, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you

were born five years after Ed
Sullivan,

yeah, that's right, ladies and

gentlemen, The Beatles. I

had a conversation the other day
with some people here who don't

have the appreciation of the
Beatles, and I said, Yeah. I

said, I understand that, you
know. I said, but you gotta

think, like, oh, it was an
industry driven thing. They were

very well marketed. I'm going,
Yeah, but they wouldn't be as

popular still if that were the
case. I think that's

true now, early days when they
first came out, yeah, I think

they were doing what they were
doing very well, but it was very

much what other bands of their
space and time were doing. But

it just so happens that the
talent, the unique individual,

you know, songwriting skills and
abilities and combined with the

success they had, allowed them a
freedom to pursue what they

wanted to pursue along the money
ball ideas, just, we're just

going to do our thing. And you
know what? Maybe didn't. I don't

know if it was a conscious
thought, but the but the basic

notion behind that was they're
so successful that they can kind

of do what they want and even if
it doesn't work. So what I think

they felt that a little bit, but
I don't think it was like

they'll take whatever we give
them. It's just we we're gonna

do what we want and but they
were so popular that people were

open to it, and it turns out it
was really good. But

we'll look at also their years
of productivity. Yeah, it wasn't

very long. No, yeah,

a high, large body of work in a
short period of time.

Yes, very much shorter than I
think most people realize. Yeah,

I love

watching that Peter Jackson
thing. And you know, Ringo is

just smoking his cigarettes.
He's got his tea towels on the

drums, he's got his teeth. He's
just waiting, and then they're

ready for the count the song
off, and it's just, they're in

just what to do. It was always
perfect, Yep, yeah, incredible.

We've got, we've gone so long
that my photo reset. Look

at that. So Sugar Land tour is
this here?

Not sure. Haven't heard you.
Okay, yeah, yeah. Did the fall

tour, and then I don't know
necessarily what the plans are,

but

someone's gonna call you Yeah. I
mean, right now, thankfully

that my session thing is, is
picking up more, yeah. And so at

the moment, I'm just, I've got a
number of things on the books

for session stuff, which is
lovely, both at my place and on

the road.

What do you do for Cartage your
stuff's not a Trump paradise.

It's not partly because I like
having my stuff available to me,

so I have it come to and from my
house every time. So I use Larry

firkins. Oh, Larry. I like
Larry's awesome. But he comes

out all the way out to Franklin
for me, that's nice. And so,

yeah, I don't have to commit
anything to to being unavailable

to me, other than if it's a
Music Row session, you know, all

my stuff comes back to the house
and, yeah, so that's, I love

that, that, and that's the main
reason I've kept it that way.

And he's been okay with going
all the way out there every

time. Yeah, you

gotta, you gotta figure out how
to work that stuff. I mean, I

pay $75 a month to keep a pile
of gear in Burbank, and I'm not

using it, yeah. But hey, 75
bucks pretty cheap. That's

pretty cheap, so I gotta figure
out what to do with all

that. But, um, you gotta keep
that stuff, or

I'm always giving my gear to
Jim. We

made a video one time where I
just walked around your studio

at the other place, and I was
picking up. It was you filming

me going, you want this? You
actually, you still use this.

You need this. I'll tell

you. You do take it, Jim, wow,

not as much as I should. No, but
We barter, because Jim is the

brains behind this operation. He
does all the file management,

all the editing, all the
marketing, like, right? Thank

you, Jim. So the one last
question I was gonna ask you is,

as a fan, as a fan of vintage
drums, but not I don't have a

sick amount, like some people
get into. What are those Ludwig

drums that have, like the
sunburst in the middle? Oh, you

record them a lot. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. So those are,

that's actually, I have a ton of
vintage drums, and those are

actually relatively modern
drums. They were sort of a

reissue that I guess maybe
didn't really work for Ludwig,

because they only did them for
about five years, and they're

called club date series. And for
a minute, for like, a year,

maybe they did a inexpensive,
made overseas club date series,

but then they did ones made at
the factory

in on road, North Carolina.
Yeah.

And I have two kits of those,
actually. One is I had them out

with Sugar Land in the fall.
It's the same drums as the ones

you see in my studio, just
different finish. And I have

wood hoops on the ones I had on
the road. But, but it's, uh, I

don't I'm so bad about
remembering, like which woods

and how many plies and what
bearing is, whatever sexy I like

that they are, and I love the
way those kits sound. And they

made them, I want to say, for
about four or five years. And I

think they stopped about four or
five years ago. So you can buy a

muse club, you can buy used club
dates. And the, they always have

the single or the single lug
with the, you know, and a lot of

them will have that duco paint
finish, you know, what I

have is the 1974 pro beats, oh
yeah, with the kind of Ringo

esque, oh the finish, yeah,

black oyster, pearl or blue?
Yeah. I have a Gretsch kit that

that I used early days, the
first couple tours, with better

Than Ezra round badge kit. But
when I bought it, it was, I

think, one of the it's like,
2413, 1618, and the floors

didn't match. And I don't know
it didn't all match. So I had

them re wrapped, and this was
even before I joined Belize, or

had them all rewrapped to match.
Not knowing, not having the

knowledge of that Gretch never
did a black oyster pearl. So I

did them in that because I'm a
big Ringo fan, yeah. And so I

have this black oyster, Pearl,
round badge Gretch kit that is

not a thing, but I've got one.
And in fact, the biggest feature

I ever had Modern Drummer. I'm
playing those drums. Yeah,

did you ever, has your stuff
ever found its way to, like the

hard rock cafes or whatever? I
do

have one small kit that hard
rock bought from me that was a,

it was part of a DW kit that I
used for a long time with Ezra,

and I used on one Sugar Land
tour. But at some point I was

using two elements from it as a
cocktail kit. It was, it was a

14 floor tom on a stand, doing
upright with one of those

backwards, you know, cocktail
beaters, yeah, and then a edge

piccolo snare above it, off the
same stand. So it kind of looked

like one big contraption, yeah.
And I used that for our acoustic

set for a long time with Sugar
Land, including an appearance we

did that. It was Beyonce, first
foray into country music, which

was a. I remember, I was
American Music Awards, one of

the TV shows, Beyonce, and Sugar
Land did a duet, and used the

Sugar Land band, and I'm playing
that kit on it. And so when hard

rock approached me, they were
interested, you know, they just

approached me about, what do you
have that you might want to sell

that has some kind of, you know,
his interesting history, and I

told him about a few different
things, but I said this was, you

know, it was used with Better
Than Ezra, it was used with

Sugar Land, and it was used on
this TV performance with

Beyonce. And they're like, Oh,
well, then we'd have that

playing next to it in on a
little TV. So they wanted that.

That's awesome,

buddy. That's pretty cool.
Please tell me they paid good

money. They paid

crazy, dumb, ridiculous, good
money. Wow, yeah, I

wish they would call me, because
Jason's rock and roll enough

that surely, yeah, I would think
his. But I've, you know, wind up

in one of those places. You
know, I played sonar for a

decade, and I sold like, 10
sonar drum sets. I figured, hey,

they got a decade of marketing
out of it. Oh, you know, yeah.

You know, grassroots marketing,
yeah. And then I use the money

to pay for drumming in the
modern world, that thing I

filmed 10 years ago. So, yeah,
but now I'm with dw, and I'll

just probably die as a DW, you
know, it's funny, because

I remember talking to you. I
don't know if you remember this.

We talked on the phone when you
were considering selling, when

you're considering going to dw,
yes, because I was a DW guy at

that time, that's right? And so
glad I did, yeah, and I remember

encouraging it, and there, you
know, there are reasons I made a

change, but it's nothing to do
with the people there or the

quality of their stuff. I mean,
they're amazing company, right?

You know, so and Garrison, in
fact, is, I don't know, is he

still artists relations over?
Yeah, such a great guy, and he's

the reason I went with them
originally, you know, it was

really for me, mostly about that
personal relationship with him.

He was so great to me, you know.
And I still value that

relationship, even though I
haven't spoken with him a long

time, but I have so much respect
and love amazing. Yeah, he's,

he's the professional model of
how to return a email promptly.

Because, before you, I mean, as
soon as you send it, your

response is back, and it might
be only two words got Yeah, all

right, right, but he's got that
means, yeah, 4000 global, you

know, endorsers, yeah, in
different languages. That's a

big job, right, right? Jim, do
we have fun? We had fun.

A total fun. Did you learn?

I learned that I'm a Travis
McNabb fan. Even more, I'm gonna

have a shirt. I heart Travis
McNabb. I just know I think it's

a, I think it's a, I think that
should be a shirt. It's like

marcism. It. You know what I
mean? And I have the same hair

that you do. We have Senator
hair right now? I just, I have

just spackled it, yeah, yeah,
because I love it, yeah? Rocket

Man, yeah, I can own it. Looks
great.

Yeah? Well, you know, it's
funny, because for me, the gray

came kind of early in my 20s. It
was starting, and at that time,

like, I'm in an alt rock band
playing, like, college festivals

and stuff. And the guys were
like, Yeah, we can't be, you

know, you're 31 but you can't
look like you're 40, yeah. And

so I died it for a long time,
and at some point when I wasn't

doing the Ezra thing anymore,
and I'm on Sugar Land, and I was

still dying, and after, I think,
coming in for rehearsals for a

new tour, so I hadn't for a
while show up at rehearsal and

nettles goes, Oh, I like the
gray. Like, permission, okay,

yeah, it's not really gray. It's
got, it's this, the chicks love

it. Steve Martin kind of thing.
You got all your hair, you know,

if it were, well,

that's talking about Robbie
herring earlier. He has a great

quote. He says, I don't care
what color, what color it turns

long as it don't turn loose. You

know, it's funny. I hear people
talking about, you know, losing

their hair and everything. And
it's like, okay, well, you want

to see mine. I've actually just
recently grew mine back. I have

a lot more

than I remembered. Oh, okay, was
that a nice surprise? I guess,

you know, my wife was like, you
know, the bulb looks kind of

played out.

Jim. It's just so important to
me. I'm so close to the Earth. I

mean, five seven, I tell
everybody, five eight, I gotta

have my hair,

right? You know so well, guys
like, we have hair everywhere

else but our I know. I go, I wax
all the other I sit there, and I

sit on the couch at night and
pick hair out of my ears, for

crying out loud. It's like, I
have one that's like, so deep

inside my ear I have to go in
there with like, tweezers, and

I'll let it go for like, two
months, and all of a sudden it's

like, and you're like, Oh my
God, this thing's like, makes

you cry. It

makes you cry. No,

I just, it's just like, it's
almost, it's got a satisfaction

to it when you pull it out. Oh
yeah. It's like, that long

amazing Jim. It's freaking we've
lost our viewers and our

listeners at this point, this

is what I like, casual though.
This is fun, super casual.

But really, one of the reasons
to start the show was just to

like, you know, shine a light on
all of our friends and and

everyone's like, Hey, when are
you gonna get Steve cat? Hey,

when you get Terry, like,
they're on the list. We're gonna

get Steve Gary. We're gonna
Terry buzz you. But I want to

interview my friends first. You
know, all the folks in Nashville

that we can be. In a room
together with because, you know,

and then we did quite a few
episodes during the pandemic via

zoom. I was in Los Angeles, he
was here, but we got a lot of

guests. That was fun. It's much
better being in the same room. I

agree. I prefer it, you

know, I've done a handful of
podcasts, and more often, I've

sometimes been in the same room,
but then it's audio, in those

cases, audio only. And I have
also done online where it's

video and audio, but, yeah,
this, to me, is the best

experience. Just, just like, you
know, recording or anything

else, when you can do it in the
space with the actual other

humans, you get the energy,
yeah, it's just a different

totally,

and it's like, you know, the
digitization happens where

people are going. Oh, you go
ahead. No, no, okay, I'll go

Yeah. Delay, yeah. Oh, you
dropped out there for a second.

Oh, it's horrible. Totally

horrible. Thanks for doing this,
man, yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's so great. You know,
to celebrate you and I heart

Travis McNabb, we're lucky to
have you. We're lucky to have

you in the national music
community, and I'm lucky to know

you. So thanks brother, thank
you for doing this. Really

appreciate it, Jim, thanks for
your time and talent, man, it

was a great day. Jim and I got
to go run an errand together

today out in Smyrna. We got to
have break bread and have some

Chinese food. Nice. That's a
great day. You know, might even

smoke his car at some point.
Maybe amazing. Hey to all the

listeners, we really appreciate
you, guys and gals. Be sure to

subscribe, share, rate and
review. It helps people find the

show and really try to take the
time to do it's 30 seconds. Just

give us five stars and a thumbs
up, maybe a couple words. Love

the show. All right. Well, we
appreciate you. We'll see you

next time. Thanks, guys.
Appreciate it. Thanks. This has

been the rich Redmond show.
Subscribe, rate and follow

along@richredman.com

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